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Thread: Lie To Me

  1. #1
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Question Lie To Me

    1) This thread started by @Mal12345 that dealt with how accurate our perceptions of other's are:

    +
    2) Was interested in how many people said in this thread that they won't lie to themselves:

    +
    3) Have been reading this book on the HOW of remembering:

    =


    Do you think even 'healthy' people lie to themselves?


    ie. If someone is not afraid of mosquito's (who kill +750,000 people a year) but IS afraid of sharks (who kill -6 people a year): is that a lie one tells themselves?

    or

    If someone is afraid of flying instead of driving? If someone exercises vigorously and smokes?

    Is it actually LYING to oneself?

    What about if one family member remembers the past ENTIRELY differently than another? Or an eyewitness? Is their perception a lie if it differs from general consensus?

    A Politician that believes their own hype but presents opposite to what they are saying: does that make them a liar?

    Or whatever else you think on this topic...
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    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    I read a book on memory last year that discussed the failures of memory, The Seven Sins of Memory. Here is a book review, The seven sins of memory

    Here are the 7 sins

    he defined his book's seven sins.

    The first three are "sins of omission" that involve forgetting, and the second four are "sins of commission" that involve distorted or unwanted recollections.

    Transience--the decreasing accessibility of memory over time. While a degree of this is normal with aging, decay of or damage to the hippocampus and temporal lobe can cause extreme forms of it. Schacter cited as a somewhat facetious example former President Bill Clinton's "convenient lapses of memory" during the Monica Lewinsky investigation. Clinton claimed in the hearings that he sometimes couldn't remember what had happened the previous week.

    Absent-mindedness--lapses of attention and forgetting to do things. This sin operates both when a memory is formed (the encoding stage) and when a memory is accessed (the retrieval stage). Examples, said Schacter, are forgetting where you put your keys or glasses. He noted a particularly famous instance in which cellist Yo-Yo Ma forgot to retrieve his $2.5 million cello from the trunk of a New York City cab.

    Blocking--temporary inaccessibility of stored information, such as tip-of-the-tongue syndrome. Schacter recounted the embarrassment of John Prescott, British deputy prime minister, when a reporter asked him how the government was paying for the expensive Millennium Dome. Prescott struggled to find the word "lottery," trying "raffles" instead.

    Suggestibility--incorporation of misinformation into memory due to leading questions, deception and other causes. Psychologists Elizabeth Loftus, PhD, and Stephen Ceci, PhD, are among those well-known in this research (see sidebar).

    Bias--retrospective distortions produced by current knowledge and beliefs. Psychologist Michael Ross, PhD, and others have shown that present knowledge, beliefs and feelings skew our memory for past events, said Schacter. For example, research indicates that people currently displeased with a romantic relationship tend to have a disproportionately negative take on past states of the relationship.

    Persistence--unwanted recollections that people can't forget, such as the unrelenting, intrusive memories of post-traumatic stress disorder. An example, said Schacter, is the case of Donnie Moore of the California Angels, who threw the pitch that lost his team the 1986 American League Championship against the Boston Red Sox. Moore fixated on the bad play, said Schacter, "became a tragic prisoner of memory," and eventually committed suicide.

    Misattribution--attribution of memories to incorrect sources or believing that you have seen or heard something you haven't. Prominent researchers in this area include Henry L. Roediger III, PhD, and Kathleen McDermott, PhD. An illustration of it, said Schacter, is the rental shop mechanic who thought that an accomplice, known as "John Doe No. 2," had worked with Timothy McVeigh in the Oklahoma City bombing; he thought he'd seen the two of them together in his shop. In fact, the mechanic had encountered John Doe No. 2 alone on a different day.
    It is from 2001, so I don't know if more recent research has expounded or changed a lot, but it was fascinating.

    My wife has severe memory problems. Sometimes this makes life very difficult for me as she won't remember something that happened 5 minutes earlier, something that 999,999 people out of a million would have permanently stuck in their memory.

    And because of this, she fills in the gaps at times, the confabulation.

    I see lies as intentional words expressed for the intent to deceive, contrary to truth known to the person speaking.

    So, if I stole your wallet and then told you I didn't know what happened to it, it would be a lie.

    Bill Clinton perjuring himself was lying, simple and straight forward.

    Anyway, liars all have tells. The body reacts differently to lies or truth and though it is only in micro expressions normally, it most definitely tells a story. The research has defined many micro expressions that have been verified to represent emotions on the persons face. I believe it was in Blink by Malcolm Gladwell or Emotional Inteliigence by Goleman(I could be very wrong as my middle-aged brain throws books together these days) where he discusses that research, but he didn't do it and I supose the original research would be fascinating. They guy who started it had been a horse race bettor and became wealthy reading the horses before a race, before making it a scientific study.

    I know there are some who believe that it can't be true, but the research seems valid. They also found that making these expressions could cause the associated emotions. Interesting stuff for sure.

    I try never to lie. But I often hold myself in a different internal emotional state than my external emotional state. It isn't fake, it is just two different parts addressing two different things.

    My desire not to lie got me into trouble as a teenager especially. I used to tell the explicit truth.

    I was watching a very inappropriate movie with my friends one night when I was 15 or so. I believe it was Risky Business. My father, who highly disapproved of R rated films in general walked in just at the scene where Tom Cruise turns his home into a brothel. My father asked "What are you watching?" "Risky Business" "Is it a good movie?" "Yes, very good" "Ok" and then he left.

    My friends were shocked I didn't lie. And that I didn't get in trouble.

    And once while I was in the middle of an hours long make out session with a girl I had just met about 10 minutes before we started kissing, she asked, "Do you love me?" My response was "I do not know even if I like you."

    My biggest dishonesty was denial. I was not honest with myself for decades about pain, love, my marriage, and so much more. I stopped journaling weeks into my marriage because everything was negative and I didn't want that. So, I created a beautiful ego construct hiding myself from me. Maybe a dozen.

    So I was externally honest entirely, 99.999% of the time(or so I thought), I was blind to me, no matter that I believed I was brutally honest with myself.

    But I guess I was not lying to myself as I had no conscious desire to deceive.

    On a final note, I really love the movie Momento and what it says about memory. I will not spoil it, but I highly recommend it.......
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

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    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  3. #3
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Do you think even 'healthy' people lie to themselves?
    In very, very short, my answer is yes. Perhaps there are those who don't, but IMO they would be infinitesimally small in number.

    But I may be projecting.
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  4. #4
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    cool show
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.
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  5. #5
    Fabula rasa Kas's Avatar
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    ^I agree.


    I am lying. Every man is a liar

    I think we lie to ourselves more often than we know. Otherwise these are weak lies. And I mean healthy people too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post

    ie. If someone is not afraid of mosquito's (who kill +750,000 people a year) but IS afraid of sharks (who kill -6 people a year): is that a lie one tells themselves?
    I heard that more people died during making selfies than were killed by sharks. Should we be afraid of smartphones?
    I think it partly comes from the fact that during your life you are bitten with many mosquitos and usually nothing happens. How many sharks do you meet? It’s typical that we’re afraid of not known. Besides as fear can be rational or irrational, appropriate or inappropriate. As we laughed about my childhood mould phobia I can’t say it’s irrational, poisoning is a real thread but it was definitely inappropriate. I was afraid of ants too ( I’ve watched episode of MacGyver in which ants were eating people) , though I knew that they don’t live where I do, that those are harmless- inappropriate again.

    It would be different if they say “I’m more afraid of sharks because they kill more people than mosquitos do ” because that’s a logically wrong sentence.

    If someone is afraid of flying instead of driving? If someone exercises vigorously and smokes?
    Same as above. Besides I noticed that most people are afraid of flight and accident because they're afraid of height.
    If someone exercise vigorously , smokes and think they have healthy lifestyle, yes that’s a lie. But if they smoke but exercise to at least do something for their lungs it’s not. I think one’s motives and reasons matters there a lot.


    What about if one family member remembers the past ENTIRELY differently than another? Or an eyewitness? Is their perception a lie if it differs from general consensus?
    Yeah that’s very interesting.

    I can tell about case like this. I used to argue with my sister a lot when we were kids. She was bigger, stronger and trained judo, so when we were fighting I was the one beated up. To defend her, it was usually me who started arguments, as younger siblings tend to do. When she was angry I was getting really afraid of her, so I used to hide in our room and sit down leaning legs on wardrobe and back on doors, she couldn’t open the doors then (they were opening to the inside).
    One day we argued again (I think I was about 7-8 years old)and I ran to the room as I tended to. I was keeping the doors closed, she was trying to open them and the glass from the door broke into pieces. Small pieces like dust fell on me, but far more on my sister, she had small cuts on forearm too. Big parts fell on the floor. We were so panicked, mostly because we destroyed the door. I think that’s why I remember everything with so many details. As I sit on the floor, as my sister cleaned the corridor and took glass to the garbage, as I left my mother voice message telling something like “We broke the glass from the door, sister is bleeding , glass is everywhere, we’re sorry about the door”...

    The thing is that when I was talking about it about year ago with my sister she told that she was only getting into the room and I slammed the door on her. Obviously I got angry and we argued again about something that happened so many years ago*, even using physics arguments about which direction the glass would fell . I’m 100% sure I know what happened, but she seemed to be 100% sure too. I think it means a lot that such different memories were about event that made us feel scared and guilty. Whoever indeed is saying truth, we both wanted to explains ourselves, our actions I guess.

    *I should add that we are friends and get along very well, we just argue dynamically


    A Politician that believes their own hype but presents opposite to what they are saying: does that make them a liar?
    Hmm can hypocrisy be treated as a form of lying. In fact I think it can..
    “The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes." A.C. Doyle

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  6. #6
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    I think an important thing to note is that facts are not truth. Facts are something that can be objectively proven right or wrong.

    A fact that is incorrect isn't the same as a lie.

    Remembering something incorrectly isn't lying. Being ignorant isn't lying. Lies are conscious. You don't accidentally lie, you accidentally say something incorrect.
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  7. #7
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    People are almost always dealing with denial (lying to oneself) when encountering information that seems too horrible to accept. That part is a human nature issue, so if I find myself aware of something that my mind is trying to reject, I step back and notice the denial.

    It does strike me how much of human interaction and even decision making is done subconsciously. My understanding of people is that that most truth is beneath the surface. A few areas where we as humans are most vulnerable to lie to ourselves include:

    Self-concept: any behaviors, thoughts, or feelings that come into conflict with an established self-image, stand a high likelihood of ending up in the denial bin. If you find yourself logical, compassionate, empathetic, discriminating in your taste, or whatever, it is worth being extra aware and scrutinizing of oneself for the ways one is in conflict with that concept.

    Family flaws: because our developmental years shape us in unintentional ways, because our frontal lobes don't even finish developing until our mid-20's, then the flaws of our early environment have a high likelihood of getting internalized. When we hate our parents or siblings for their flaws, it is worth taking a step back to realize that each one of use does in fact possess at least some of those same flaws. I think this is the root of most projection issues, when people see their own flaws in others. We learn to do that by actually seeing those flaws in others, our family members, but not realizing that we are also possessing those flaws.

    Also when an event occurs that is too horrible for us to get our heads around, we tend to deny it. That is why a lot of people stay in destructive relationships or deny their children are being abused.

    I think those are the three highest risks scenarios I can think of for lying to oneself. I work hard at uncovering the times I've done it to myself. I think I have the capacity like anyone, but I see it as a big problem, so i am always working on it as well.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  8. #8
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The lie that cannot speak its name

    Psychological repression is part of the human condition.

    Repression is different from suppression. Suppression is where we deliberately hide something, while repression is not deliberate, is entirely unconscious, and we are consciously unaware of what we have repressed.

    Typically we repress the psychologically unbearable, such as the anger we might feel towards a parent who we depend on for our physical and emotional survival. As a small child we cannot afford to even become aware of the anger we feel towards a parent, lest we be abandoned. So we hide the anger, even from ourselves.

    And although repressed feelings are not conscious, they do not go away, and they colour our conscious thoughts and feelings.

    And the problem is that when we repress a negative emotion such as anger, we tend to repress positive emotions such as delight, pleasure, and love.

    And often enough the path back to delight, pleasure, and love is by first experiencing our repressed anger, called making the unconscious, conscious. But this is so difficult and painful, most of us are unable to make the journey alone. So we imagine all kinds of false explanations for our emotional inadequacy.

    So repression is the lie that cannot speak its name.

  9. #9
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    @Labyrinthe

    because our frontal lobes don't even finish developing until our mid-20's, then the flaws of our early environment have a high likelihood of getting internalized. When we hate our parents or siblings for their flaws, it is worth taking a step back to realize that each one of use does in fact possess at least some of those same flaws. I think this is the root of most projection issues, when people see their own flaws in others. We learn to do that by actually seeing those flaws in others, our family members, but not realizing that we are also possessing those flaws.
    I hadn't really considered the science of this before. Thanks for pointing me in that direction.

    Seeing our own flaws in others is a tricky one for certain! It's always fascinating to see how a parent reacts to the child that is most like them OR their mate...

    ---

    @SearchingforPeace I will add that book to my list. It looks like a good supplement to the one I am currently reading...

    I smiled at the Risky Business story. GLAD you chose to look denial in the face! (smile).

    ---

    It doesn't seem like you are projecting @Alaska. I have always thought the same and it appears others do also.

    ---

    Do you think this is an absolute @sarcasmsunshine?
    Lies are conscious.
    I wonder about people who actually believe their own lies? What do you think?

    ---

    Thanks for your personal account @Kas. I was both entertained and intrigued. I recently testified in a hearing and the eyewitnesses were not in agreement AT ALL regarding the same situations they had experienced. But, who was telling the truth? Not easy questions...

    Thanks also for answering the question re: hypocrisy. I never had even considered 'death by selfie'!!! But, of course.

    ---

    That was beautifully expressed @Mole. Thank you for your thoughts on repression.
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  10. #10
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    A milestone in the psychological development of a child is when they discover they can lie, that they can hide things from their parents.

    So to think of lying in terms of morality annoys me.

    And learning at a very early age that we can hide things from our parents means we can also hide things from our peers, our teachers, our lovers, and the police.

    And most important, we learn we can hide things from the State. And this forms the basis of free speech.

    Sometimes they tells us they don't mind if free speech if degraded and we are under surveillance, because I have nothing to hide. And of course we have nothing to hide but our lies. And we have been lying since we were tots, our psychological and social development depends on our lying.

    And lying gives birth to the suspension of disbelief in the movies, in books, in religion, in superstition, in TV, even the telephone, in art, music, dance, in mythology.

    Lying gave psychological birth to our world when we were tots.

    And of course lying means we are in a position to reveal things about ourselves to trusted friends.
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