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  1. #81
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I can strongly relate to this notion.
    I think this is a phenomena that can be connected to the cognitive function: Ne.
    I think it is often that people want an answer from something but are afraid to get straight to the point- so we choose to engage in bullshitting instead- hoping that our 'hidden' motives won't be dug up.
    It's a somewhat craven thing to do.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  2. #82
    Senior Member 563 740's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I can strongly relate to this notion.
    I think this is a phenomena that can be connected to the cognitive function: Ne.
    I think it is often that people want an answer from something but are afraid to get straight to the point- so we choose to engage in bullshitting instead- hoping that our 'hidden' motives won't be dug up.
    It's a somewhat craven thing to do.
    I think it goes both ways. I will admit to sometimes avoiding the direct question if I'm trying not to look stupid or whatevs. But like was hit somewhere else in this thread, I'll also avoid the direct question if I'm looking for more than just the direct answer (beating around the bush to learn more about it).
    Extremes: Need To Pursue

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  3. #83
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I believe, we are simply doing what we want to do. I know this may do nothing about the dislike of a particular activity. But keep in mind what it would be like if someone turned off your favorite show--there ought to be a good reason.
    That is more or less the point, I agree. When we split groups up on preferences - and this doesn't require MBTI at all - we are going to get groups that have different preferences... obvious, right? It shouldn't be surprising that we each have our own 'show' that we prefer.

    You could do the exact same thing with sport preferences and repeat the discussion. It goes a bit deeper when it is personality, but same concept.

    Illusions exist. Experience is limited. Data is often doctored, mismeasured, or misrepresented. Objectivity is nothing more than the repeatability of subjective experience. Please let me know which of those statements you disagree with.
    I agree with all, but it doesn't change my preference.

    For each point that can be brought up in the subjective world, it is always the progression towards objective that I (we) strive for. Illusion and bad data is the enemy, meant to be overcome, not an excuse to avoid using a particular method.

    If anything, the intuitive approach is less rigid with illusion and bad data - granted, Ss can take it at face value, but theorists can be heavily misled into believing their own theories when supported by even the weakest (anecdotal, etc) data or the flimsiest of illusions (human biases come to mind here for some reason).

    The downside to the more rigid thinkers is that they can become rigid with bad data and illusions and not let go of them, whereas the theorists tend to... retheorize. On the balance, the openness part is probably more important right now, due to the acceleration of technology.

    3) Perhaps it is my technical background, but I found myself sharing many of the sentiments of Grayscale and pt on this matter. One of my favorite phrases at work is "if it isn't tested, it doesn't work" (an exageration, but not far from the truth).
    The only difference here would be that I say "if I can't use it, it doesn't work". A very subjective thing - I have no comment on anything that I do not use/know about. That's why I say I don't have patience for just theory. I need to use it to care.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    edit - but the particular point made in the quote I put in the OP, or the point it brought up in my mind was that here, the N isn't even being trusted to know how to handle THEIR OWN LIFE, to know or be able to judge what information they need, what's relevant to a situation... ?!
    The most competent people I know are all Ns, and most of them are very balanced.

    However, it does bother me when something happens to them and automatically cope by saying "what do you think about..." in a general way. Don't do that! Just tell me what happened so I can understand *you*. I don't want to talk about something for 15 minutes only to realise that it had happened to you!

    It'll help you too. A solution made *for* you will be better than understanding the big picture, of which you could be an exception (one of many!).

    I would guess the majority of the irritation I feel comes from this scenario. I can talk theory, big picture, but I'd really talk about the matter at hand. If that needs to be theory, I'll manage... but when it doesn't and it feels forced? Grrr...

    But if you do that enough, I do think I might think that you don't deal with your own issues at a practical level. Maybe not fair, I agree, but the tendency would be there. Course, I think this about a lot of people and I don't seem to have a S/N divide. More like a Ti divide. And I'm looking at you too, TJs.

  4. #84
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    heh, well sometimes asking about it in a general way before telling you it happened to me personally is my way of scouting whether you'll be judgemental or receptive to what I'm saying before saying it... I'll admit that.

    edit - I mean, say for example I'm looking for advice on how to deal with an issue with somebody, and I already know what the problem is beyond reasonable doubt, I just want to sound out various possible solutions. If I tell you it happened to me, you're gonna want to dissect the whole thing and probably reapportion blame according to your limited understanding of the situation, when all I wanted was a 'what would you do if this were the case?' meaning I know this is the case, that's not something I want to discuss. Therefore giving you the details of how I know it to be the case is pretty pointless...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #85
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    heh, well sometimes asking about it in a general way before telling you it happened to me personally is my way of scouting whether you'll be judgemental or receptive to what I'm saying before saying it... I'll admit that.
    Grrrr....

    That's always what it feels like. Plus, it often makes me stick my foot in my mouth without even knowing!

  6. #86
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    yeah but I mean, c'mon, if for example you were gonna come out as gay, you'd want to get some idea of a person's general opinions on the subject of homosexuality before confiding in them that you're suffering from prejudice and asking their advice in dealing with it...?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  7. #87
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    actually, come to think of it, it seems a staple N experience to be told you come out with things you shouldn't, that you're too controversial, talk crazy shit etc... so it's hardly surprising that we'd want to do a bit of scouting for receptivity before putting ourselves on the line to be smacked down as usual... maybe it just becomes a habit sometimes...

    Mondo - I usually don't even know what my own motives are and it's in discussing things that I hope to find them crystallize somewhat...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #88
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    yeah but I mean, c'mon, if for example you were gonna come out as gay, you'd want to get some idea of a person's general opinions on the subject of homosexuality before confiding in them that you're suffering from prejudice and asking their advice in dealing with it...?
    Personally, I would simply take that as a lack of trust. I'd like to think my friends would accept my opinion as mine - what, are they not going to tell me if they find out it could rock the relationship?

    (The following post could be true... I don't see many Ns being told not to be controversial - I do hear them being told to focus on the matter at hand.)

  9. #89
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Captain Chick, I disagree that this thing is only an INTP/ENTP thing. I, too, have this problem, and I'm an ENFP.

    Maybe I'm just weird??? Oh, wait, silly me, of course I am!!!

    By the way, Jeffy - to address your point: It's funny. I think all the people who felt that way always came to me and said. "Dude, he wanted 10 pages, I wrote only four. How many pages did you write?" And I was like, "Uh, 20." And they said, "TWENTY?!?!?! WTF?!?!?! How the hell did you write TWENTY pages?!?!?!" I was like, "uhhhh, wellllll...."
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  10. #90
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    yeah... when I get told to stick to the subject at hand it often hurts actually cos I thought I WAS!!! what I said was, in my mind, deeply connected and relevant to the subject at hand. Of course I can understand if I've made a big leap that it might not be immediately apparent as to HOW, but I'd like it if people would at least hear me out a bit more whilst I talk my way through to connecting it to the dot they're currently on... it's not easy for me to do that, so it's annoying when I'm trying my best to do it and I just get told I'm rambling... ha, can't win...

    as to trust... it's more fear really, and maybe yeah, fear can denote a lack of trust but when experience in the past is bad it's pretty hard to overcome the fear, no matter how you might intellectually know it to be irrational... and then there's the other side of the coin, where people say you shouldn't ASSUME you know what people think... so which is it? Am I presumptuous to assume I know where they'd stand without asking them? Or am I being rightly trustful? Gah, well, half of that is P uncertainty and self-doubt... low self-esteem too in a way, like "I'm lucky this person tolerates me as it is, because they must be a really good person... it's too much to ask that they see past this freakery of mine as well..."
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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