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  1. #61
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    what of people who continue to have such a high opinion of their own thinking but cant manage to succeed in achieving what they want in life or solving problems that other, less "enlightened" people have less trouble with?
    uh... are you saying N's have a monopoly on this? cos I can assure you, they don't...

    I mean, basket cases come in all shapes and sizes, I don't see what that has to do with the price of fish...?
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    uh... are you saying N's have a monopoly on this? cos I can assure you, they don't...

    I mean, basket cases come in all shapes and sizes, I don't see what that has to do with the price of fish...?
    ^ ninja edit

    i dont think this has anything to do with intuition or sensing, it just seems like self-identified intuitives do it more often.

    really, anyone who allows themselves to be "right" without any sort of objectivity gets on my nerves because i put a lot of thought on practicality and objective measurement into anything i claim with certainty

    this is why we have the scientific method. i dont have a problem with theories, i just dont like it when they get promoted by their creator to full blown scientific law, just cause they "know" or "have a feeling"

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    what happens when two intuitive thoughts disagree?

    this is sort of my beef with it. i have no problem with generating ideas, but everybody has ideas and the difference between good ones and bad ones is up to reality, not the person who came up with them.

    after all, reality is ultimately what we all have in common, and if someone wants their ideas to hold value to other people then they will need to show validity there somehow.
    Reality is subjective.

  4. #64
    Senior Member 563 740's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    really, anyone who allows themselves to be "right" without any sort of objectivity gets on my nerves because i put a lot of thought on practicality and objective measurement into anything i claim with certainty
    I think we can all agree that pompous blowhards suck balls regardless of type...
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 563 740 View Post
    I think we can all agree that pompous blowhards suck balls regardless of type...
    i wouldnt call it that, and i would say its fairly common even if they dont use those very words. some people take more responsibility for accuracy than others

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Reality is subjective.
    by my definition, reality is all that isn't subjective, which can be determined through pattern observation. most people probably wouldnt argue that humans dont need to breathe oxygen to survive for prolonged periods of time because we have plenty of examples that most sane people will agree prove otherwise. someone will always say that anything is possible, but i dont see them putting a plastic bag over their head anytime soon.

    i, too, wish we lived in a world without rules (i dont like them after all) but i wont deny that everything fits together in only one way that holds true no matter how much testing you subject it to. the question is whether it is more important for people to really find out what that is or merely appear as if they have. some of the best scientists will probably never get recognized because their dedication to the rigors of the process means that they wont find an answer in their lifetime.

  6. #66
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    this is why we have the scientific method. i dont have a problem with theories, i just dont like it when they get promoted by their creator to full blown scientific law, just cause they "know" or "have a feeling"
    Hmm... but doesn't the scientific method itself begin with a theory, an idea, a "what if?" inspiration that's then discussed and taken to the lab to be proven, disproven or adapted?

    If I were to claim some theory I had about say, social science for example, were infallibly correct because I 'just knew', you'd be dead right in calling me on it.

    But if I were to say a theory I had about something pertaining to my own personal life, where I'm the key player and am the ultimate authority with regard to the dynamics from my POV between myself and another person, surely on this level, subjectivity is allowed??

    Are you sure that you don't have a bit of anti-N bias in there somewhere? it just sorta seems like you're saying in your belief N's don't value objective reasoning... which would sorta fly in the face of NT being generally held to be the 'scientific' temperament...??

    After all, intuition is about data gathering, not processing. T/F is the objective/subjective dichotomy, not S/N.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #67
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hmm... but doesn't the scientific method itself begin with a theory, an idea, a "what if?" inspiration that's then discussed and taken to the lab to be proven, disproven or adapted?

    If I were to claim some theory I had about say, social science for example, were infallibly correct because I 'just knew', you'd be dead right in calling me on it.

    But if I were to say a theory I had about something pertaining to my own personal life, where I'm the key player and am the ultimate authority with regard to the dynamics from my POV between myself and another person, surely on this level, subjectivity is allowed??

    Are you sure that you don't have a bit of anti-N bias in there somewhere? it just sorta seems like you're saying in your belief N's don't value objective reasoning... which would sorta fly in the face of NT being generally held to be the 'scientific' temperament...??

    After all, intuition is about data gathering, not processing. T/F is the objective/subjective dichotomy, not S/N.
    i dont care to even categorize people into type, i am simply expressing my frustration for people who exhibit this type of behavior. my experiences are that a lot of the big picture thinkers are more prone to doing it (perhaps because they dont like to get bogged down in what they consider to be unimportant details?) but it's irrelevant to the fact that i find that behavior annoying and why.

    even if were prone to letting personal agenda play a part in my opinion, i still consider myself a fairly intuitive person and know lots of what i can only guess would be N-types that i consider to be intelligent (even if were not always on the same page)

    i have to agree with PT in the sense that a balance is required, but often times the importance of the boundaries created by having to prove the concrete validity of ideas is under-emphasized next to imagination when this is the only way we can separate good ideas from invalid ones.

  8. #68
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Woah PT, you've had some seriously bad experiences at the hands of some crazy N's by the sounds of it...
    Not so much Ok, well, I have But I meant that I don't mean that every N is a fringe case that drives me nuts. Only in particular cases where the N is strong, and they are stubborn.

    The difference depends on the situation!

    Ah yes, your research and facts would've been very very welcome in the bullying thread, I can tell you that. By me, at least, obviously I can't speak for anyone else but ... you're wrong though that this really is always the end of the discussion. If 'the facts' were always the end of a discussion then nobody would ever go in search of NEW facts.
    They would be welcome now, but they generally are *not* reflected upon if I simply put out the data. I don't mean this as a bad thing, or a comment beyond what it says. My style is particular and I know it. And really, what is the point of just delivering information? I mean, there are textbooks of information that could explain it all, so at some point the answer would just be "read thousands of pages of theories and data instead of talk about it". All it does is interrupt the flow of thought, but that flow of thought here is very N. I have a very different response when I'm at a hobby forum, or DIY forum. There, actual solutions and data is like a glass of water.

    That's mostly what I'm highlighting - not that we don't both theorize, just that we do it in different amounts/times. And since it is only the differences being talked about, it sounds like fringe cases, and seems larger than it is. Most of us are likely pretty balanced individuals, but that doesn't mean the gap in preferences don't come out.

    Besides, the difference is related. It's like type 1 and type 2 statistical errors. You gain more coverage, at the expense of less defined theories. I gain more defined theories, but at the expense of coverage.

    (The big ones for me are bullying, IQ and stereotyping - since I care very much about those topics, things tend to go downhill when I impose )


    I just can't help thinking when I hear things like that, you know, sure, that's what people said about the sun going round the earth once...
    Exactly. But at the same time, I don't really want you to (common stereotype) be working with my engine and theorizing on new designs at the same time. And it doesn't mean you couldn't work on an engine, or that I couldn't theorize the design of one.

    It's just that there will be more cases where I would rather not be designing an engine, and more cases where you don't want to be talking about dismantling (x) engine.

    Even though we do use both and both serve a function, it doesn't mean that we serve it well together/same situations/etc. And both taken too far (ie: the earth is supported by a giant turtle a few elephants)... it doesn't work either.

    But there's always room for doubting those things, for me.
    Oh, we are both still Ps, believe me. There is no clear line to draw - each person is different. That's the price of a generality.

    I can handle abstractions and imperfect theories - MBTI comes to mind But that doesn't matter too much to me because (as I'm sure we both do) I also don't have a problem defining the limits of a theory, and simply not using it.

    And we are both very similar in the whole impulse-thinky way. One day I'll be designing my Wii project, the next designing water fountains, then sketching personal submarines. In a literal "this month" kind of way... but I'm similar with the projects I have in the physical world (which all of those lead into).I am not, however, generally looking at abstract concepts. I'm designing circuits, not religion. I'm not reading about MBTI, I'm reading marketing psychology. I don't care about naval architecture, I care about getting my sub underwater with me in it (saftey optional!).

    In each of those cases, when an INTP says "wouldn't it be cool", I want to stop them and ask - we'll talk about this, but first, can it be built now? Should I take you seriously?

    What if one of my 10% was a cure for AIDS?
    Which one...? Want to try all of the different theories on humans to find out?

    This is just to relate to the type 1 and 2 errors in statistics

    oh yeah and... I didn't really wanna go into it a great deal unless others felt it was warranted, but there is a lot of research that's been done into the intuition process and how in fact, perhaps it has more basis in fact than given credit for... y'know, the idea of subconsciously taken-in data that the brain sifts through on a subconscious level to reach an instant conclusion that you 'just know', without being able to explain why?
    This is where I break out Step II to talk about defining intuition within the context of MBTI And by that, I mean, intuitive by MBTI doesn't have to mean 'intuitive'. If anything, 'intuitive' means 'smart P', and I might even say "experience" rather than that.

    I would hazard a guess that once you remove ability (IQ) from the equation, preferences would show better 'in tunement' (bwahah) along the items they are most familiar with. Small intuitive leap, right? But really, I wouldn't be trusting intuition in probability, nor when taking apart my engine for the first time. But I would trust a mechanic telling me something, but he doens't know what, is wrong with my car just by looking at it.

    Doesn't the scientific method itself begin with a theory
    I think it normally begins with an observation, because the fundamental requirement for science to be science is to have a testable hypothesis. That is, it has to explain something, which is normally an observation first.

  9. #69
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    ^ ninja edit
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  10. #70

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    Intersting discussion.

    I am finding that I can relate to both sides quite well even though I am an N.

    To be honest, I actually have an easier time understanding what the S's are saying than the N's (poor subs.) I think substitute's main aim was to get S's to air greivences, but I may be mistaken.

    Unfortunately, only three S's have had significant participation in this thread.

    Please correct me is I am sumarizing improperly, but I also see three main greivences.

    1) Dislike of general questions and discussions when more specific ones would be more direct.

    2) Dislike of people speculating.

    3) Dislikes the lack of value placed on reality testing.

    Is that a good summary?

    If so, I would like to convey my perspective on each item.

    1) I mentioned the inventor's paradox earlier. But it means more than just leverage. It is about the elucidation of "principles." This is one of my chief aims and gratfications in life. I have no further need nor desire for those priciples to be used for anything--though using them brings great joy also.

    When it comes down to it, what is "parctical" is subjective. What is the point of doing anything? Is playing cards or games "practical?"--many would say not. What about whatching movies or TV shows? What is the point of climbing a mountain? What, even, is the point of being alive?--what practical purpose does it serve?

    I believe, we are simply doing what we want to do. I know this may do nothing about the dislike of a particular activity. But keep in mind what it would be like if someone turned off your favorite show--there ought to be a good reason.

    2) All percieved reality is speculative. To believe differently is delusion. Granted, some speculation is downright ridiculous, and that type bugs me too (unless we just B.S.ing anyway).

    Illusions exist. Experience is limited. Data is often doctored, mismeasured, or misrepresented. Objectivity is nothing more than the repeatability of subjective experience. Please let me know which of those statements you disagree with.

    3) Perhaps it is my technical background, but I found myself sharing many of the sentiments of Grayscale and pt on this matter. One of my favorite phrases at work is "if it isn't tested, it doesn't work" (an exageration, but not far from the truth).

    (Please note that I am also rather busy at work, and will not likely respond again till late tomorrow)

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