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  1. #41
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    It is however, quite difficult to solve or fully explore anything when facts are missing
    Very true.

    It's not that I want a lot of irrelevant details, I just want to understand the important facts so that I can safely theorize.

    On a side-note, I also am weary with certain N's (NFs mostly) because being the T - problem-solver I can get myself in trouble if I don't have the facts. Example (a bad one I know)

    NF friend - "Alicia, why do I often feel like somebody hates me"

    Me - 'why do you say that?"

    NF friend - "because I get crapped on all the time"

    Me- "well, maybe you need to have a more positive outlook, be friendlier, try harder"

    NF friend - "why you think I'm not friendly?"

    Me - (backpeddaling)"perhaps, sometimes. What really happened today?"

    NF friend - "I got a flat tire"

  2. #42
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    Understanding is the key, alicia. Once you realize everyone's going to be ridiculous in his own way, or her own way, it's like water off a duck's back.

  3. #43
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    Very true Jack - that's why I'm still friends with all different types.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milti girl View Post
    Exactly. To Ns it's more important to understand the general principles behind what make ESFPs tick. Then they'll attempt to apply what they have learnt to the ESFP in their personal life. Ns do not want to personalise their questions right away. They need to know whether what they are experiencing is generally true or not - and if not, then how they should redefine the way they look at ESFPs.
    i think the difference is not in the application, but in how different people gather information. at least speaking on behalf of SP experiencers, this information is gathered through direct experience or a specific question regarding that, but is still quite malleable in future application.

    maybe so-called "S"-types realize how things apply to reality in the big picture without having to discuss it at a meta-level... which is why hands-on works better for those people. personally speaking, i dont need the theory laid out to "get it" because it's inherent to me, while i guess some people do... which is why it's easy to get impatient.

    it's like im trying to figure out how to cut down a tree for a fire and some goof is still saying "my god, it's a FOREST!"

  5. #45
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachelinpa View Post
    I can see the value of the specific points an S would want. Do S's see the value of the pattern or relationship between points?
    As a thing that's primary and disconnected from the facts as pure abstract... explored for its own intrinsic value...

    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post

    It's not that I want a lot of irrelevant details, I just want to understand the important facts so that I can safely theorize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    It is however, quite difficult to solve or fully explore anything when facts are missing.

    ....Although I think my experience *can* be applied more universally perhaps, it would be disingenuous and even misleading to not state said experience upfront and leave it to the audience to judge validity.
    Apparently not

    Seriously though Esses, do you not understand the idea of talking hypothetically? I mean, can you not see that we're talking here about doing the same thing you do but in reverse? Whilst I obviously acknowledge that your approach has its merits, can you allow that the N's does too? Or does it really just seem all 'silly and pointless' to you?

    I mean for example I might have a specific thing in mind but it's personal to me, and I'm just trying to gather input to create a general theory from as many OTHER examples as possible. So i ask hypothetical questions. I don't want the other person to dissect this specific incident with me, I just want them to tell me how they'd respond to a hypothetically similar situation, or how they have responded to similar ones in their experience. Then I can relate what they tell me what I know, see the patterns and connect the dots and solve the problem myself. Is that not also a valid way to work?

    "I don't want you to solve my problem for me. I just want you to help me out with some information so i can solve it myself. Don't worry about context, facts, details etc, just answer my questions with whatever your genuine response is, muse over these things with me in the abstract, and that will help me."
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  6. #46
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    :rolli:

    I cannot stand meandering, self-indulgent posts that are not supposed to, or meant to be meandering and self-indulgent.

    I appreciate those, both Ns and Ss (lol, that looks weird) alike, who can state their ideas and points clearly.

    I also prefer the concise to the needlessly convoluted.

    The End

    -CC
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #47
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I cannot stand meandering, self-indulgent posts that are not supposed to, or meant to be meandering and self-indulgent.

    I appreciate those, both Ns and Ss (lol, that looks weird) alike, who can state their ideas and points clearly;

    I also prefer the concise to the needlessly convoluted.

    The End

    -CC
    me too.
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  8. #48
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    me too.
    You cut a bit too much but I feel ya.

    Lol, whoops, my bad, nice job.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #49
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Seriously though Esses, do you not understand the idea of talking hypothetically?


    Hypothetically is a good word to use for Ns.

    That's the nature of preferences. Ns don't want the effort of parsing through huge amounts of data to come up with both a solid hypothesis and meaningful data to support the hypothesis. They want to leap right into making connections. Ss don't want the effort of making many connections; they want to leap right into distilling information to make the connection easy.

    So, Ss view hypothetical as being as useful as the smallest jump required. Sure, we understand it, we just don't understand the N preference for it. Hence, we both use both functions, so to speak... it is just an order of preference.

    Are both valid? They go together. I don't think one can be called invalid without the other also being invalid - they don't work seperate from each other. Chances are, in balance, N modelling is more valued, if kept within reasonable limits. Or if you not, you become a string theory believer.

    I tend to try to give space for N air-headedness before I bottomline something, but it is tolerance, not acceptance. I just about had a heart attack when you said that you develop a theory, then try to find the data to support it. This happens during the process too - the glossing over of details. In (my) S eyes, Ns tend to do fancy feetwork to keep their theory alive. The biggest one is 'generalising' (you mentioned leverage). The theory is a hammer and all of a sudden, screws start to look like nails. This can be a big irritation to detail centric and bottom lining types! Especially when they ask "what do you think about this" and you want to answer "see what? You made it out of thin air, with weak data - what is there to see? Come back when you have something useful".

    Which is all the flip side of Ns going "why can't you seeeeee?", of course.

    Don't worry though, I see the value in how you think

    (It often takes a bit of effort for me to not just post hundreds of "Did you know research has already been done on this topic?" Do I get to ask if Ns will ever start putting some effort into their thoughts before throwing them around everywhere... or would that be rude? )

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I also prefer the concise to the needlessly convoluted.-CC
    Why can't they all be like you.

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