• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Bullying

RadicalDoubt

Alongside Questionable Clarity
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
1,848
MBTI Type
TiSi
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Simple idea in this case : the parents work normally. No need to imitate traditional teaching with 2-hour sessions for each course. Just teach self-teaching and demand (I did mean demand and not ask) them to do some homework. The child will probably be willing to do it if he knows that's the only reasonable way to avoid bullying. I mean, many poor parents are able to tell their children "I wish I could give you more home comfort or better food or better toys, but we can't afford them". Children are not stupid. I think I'll teach my son economics before 7 because I think teaching these subjects at late teenage or early adulthood is a retarded thing to do. Most college-like things can be taught to children if prepared in the appropriate way.

Homeschooling may take only a hour a day for the parents.

Isolation shouldn't be feared too much. Online socialization is real socialization.
In theory this is a decent idea, but requires children to be at a reasonable age to be left to their own devices, a child to have the self motivation to learn, an environment which is conducive for self learning, and for parents to have some sort of background in how education works. These are not feasible constraints for a lot of people and, especially since bullying itself is a major cause of mental health issues (such as depression, which is a massive killer of motivation), is even more so. Children are definitely not stupid, and with the right push many can accomplish a lot of things that you would never expect, but without the right background in skills and, for some children, discipline, self learning about subjects that must be understood for eventual integration into adulthood can often be difficult without the hand of a tutor or parents giving a bit of direction.

Severe bullying, especially such that greatly effects your child's mental health, must be addressed and is well addressed through removal from the situation, but long term isolation without reasonable conditions for socialization and learning that accommodate the single learner can also greatly effect a child's help. Online socialization is real and can do wonders for the isolated, but there are steep learning curves if this is a child's only form of socialization when integrating into adulthood, especially if the interest is in pursuing careers and endeavors which require primarily in person interaction.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Simple idea in this case : the parents work normally. No need to imitate traditional teaching with 2-hour sessions for each course. Just teach self-teaching and demand (I did mean demand and not ask) them to do some homework. The child will probably be willing to do it if he knows that's the only reasonable way to avoid bullying. I mean, many poor parents are able to tell their children "I wish I could give you more home comfort or better food or better toys, but we can't afford them". Children are not stupid. I think I'll teach my son economics before 7 because I think teaching these subjects at late teenage or early adulthood is a retarded thing to do. Most college-like things can be taught to children if prepared in the appropriate way.

Homeschooling may take only a hour a day for the parents.

Isolation shouldn't be feared too much. Online socialization is real socialization.
Most parents don't have the experience or resources to homeschool effectively, beyond the earliest grades. Younger children especially also cannot just be left at home alone. I know quite a few homeschoolers. Most of them subscribe to some online curriculum, which costs money and still needs parental supervision for the kids to follow through. This generally turns into Mom giving up her job to do this - another case of mothers solving society's problems for free.

I prefer to fix the public schools so they do the job we are all paying them to do already, through our tax dollars.
 

Red Memories

Haunted Echoes
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Messages
6,315
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
215
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Most parents don't have the experience or resources to homeschool effectively, beyond the earliest grades. Younger children especially also cannot just be left at home alone. I know quite a few homeschoolers. Most of them subscribe to some online curriculum, which costs money and still needs parental supervision for the kids to follow through. This generally turns into Mom giving up her job to do this - another case of mothers solving society's problems for free.

I prefer to fix the public schools so they do the job we are all paying them to do already, through our tax dollars.

There is that...but I feel like I benefitted quite a bit from my homeschooling. At the same time, I don't know if I would've been homeschooled had my mother not experienced heavy bullying in her own experience and they felt the system would actually teach me.

But you speak honestly too. "Homeschooling" is often buying a curriculum to do at home and having the parent work with you.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
There is that...but I feel like I benefitted quite a bit from my homeschooling. At the same time, I don't know if I would've been homeschooled had my mother not experienced heavy bullying in her own experience and they felt the system would actually teach me.

But you speak honestly too. "Homeschooling" is often buying a curriculum to do at home and having the parent work with you.
Homeschooling is a good solution for individual students in unusual circumstances, and parents should always have that option. It is not a systemic fix to the problems of public schools. When the families who are most invested in their children's education leave the public schools, as homeschoolers often are, it just makes improvement that much harder. When they homeschool for religious reasons, they are often just putting blinders on their children. Their right, but not in the best interests of the child, or the people that child will encounter as an adult.
 

Frosty

Poking the poodle
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
12,667
Instinctual Variant
sp
Homeschooling is a good solution for individual students in unusual circumstances, and parents should always have that option. It is not a systemic fix to the problems of public schools. When the families who are most invested in their children's education leave the public schools, as homeschoolers often are, it just makes improvement that much harder. When they homeschool for religious reasons, they are often just putting blinders on their children. Their right, but not in the best interests of the child, or the people that child will encounter as an adult.

Have you ever read the book “Educated” by Tara Westover?

I am currently a few chapters in and apparently its a pretty good memoir. Its basically about her childhood raised in a very religious family and her fight as an adult to claim an education for herself.

I havent gotten all the way through it, so I cannot recommend it yet. But apparently it is a very good book that cuts into these themes.

Bit of a derail I suppose tho from me here
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,444
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I was trying to use Ni last night to play with certain images that have archetypal resonance for me, and I hit on something interesting about broader social support for bullying, even by those who don't engage in it themselves. I remember a decent amount of authority figures essentially engaging in "victim blaming" when I was bullied; there was the underlying assumption that it was my fault somehow. And they never gave any practical steps or information about how I could make myself a target, it was all some vague judgement on my inner character as deficient, like I needed "to stop making myself helpless" or "not let people push my buttons." I can't help but think that in statements like that there was the judgement made that there must be some aspect of myself that made the bullying justified.

Obviously it should be clear to everyone now that there are a large percentage of American adults who see bullying as admirable behavior, at least if it isn't directed at them.
 
Last edited:

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
What is difficult about this issue is that people always feel justified when they bully. It results from distorted perceptions combined with punitive behaviors. When people stop trying to punish people for what they perceive they have done wrong, they cease to be bullies or in more extreme cases, abusers. The difference between constructive criticism and boundaries and bullying is that the bullying behavior serves the single purpose of attempting to inflict pain. It is not about informing, but about making someone feel helpless, lowered self-worth, or even fear. The bully gains a feeling of satisfaction from domination, control, and knowing someone they hate is suffering. Anyone who enjoys the suffering of others is a bully or abuser. Period.

Anyone who bullies can get help and change.

 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Up the Wolves
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
19,444
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
What is difficult about this issue is that people always feel justified when they bully. It results from distorted perceptions combined with punitive behaviors. When people stop trying to punish people for what they perceive they have done wrong, they cease to be bullies or in more extreme cases, abusers. The difference between constructive criticism and boundaries and bullying is that the bullying behavior serves the single purpose of attempting to inflict pain. It is not about informing, but about making someone feel helpless, lowered self-worth, or even fear. The bully gains a feeling of satisfaction from domination, control, and knowing someone they hate is suffering. Anyone who enjoys the suffering of others is a bully or abuser. Period.

Anyone who bullies can get help and change.


I didn't watch this until now, but it rang true for me. I've certainly never found power structures reliable when it comes to anti-bullying; it doesn't surprise me that it's still the case.
 

MarkSabier89

New member
Joined
Feb 10, 2021
Messages
3
For me, the school also became the very place where I was subjected to moral violence, less often physical. It's terrible and I don't understand why children are so cruel. I had enough life with my father, but the kids could add from above.
 

Bacopa

New member
Joined
Feb 13, 2021
Messages
55
MBTI Type
intj
It's weird how kids that get bullied are usually the kids that don't tell their parents cause they have a bad relationship with them. Bullies look for those people who feel unloved in the first place.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It's weird how kids that get bullied are usually the kids that don't tell their parents cause they have a bad relationship with them. Bullies look for those people who feel unloved in the first place.
An interesting notion. I suppose kids who feel loved and secure at home will have more confidence to stand up to bullies, knowing that they will be supported at least in one area/setting of their life.

More generally, though (question directed at all readers): is it ever acceptable to bully someone? Are there ever circumstances in which someone is deserving of being bullied?
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
An interesting notion. I suppose kids who feel loved and secure at home will have more confidence to stand up to bullies, knowing that they will be supported at least in one area/setting of their life.

More generally, though (question directed at all readers): is it ever acceptable to bully someone? Are there ever circumstances in which someone is deserving of being bullied?

No it is not. It is criminal activity.

"Bullying is the use of force, coercion, hurtful teasing or threat, to abuse, aggressively dominate or intimidate. The behavior is often repeated and habitual.

One essential prerequisite is the perception (by the bully or by others) of an imbalance of physical or social power. This imbalance distinguishes bullying from conflict.

Bullying is a subcategory of aggressive behavior characterized by the following three criteria: (1) hostile intent, (2) imbalance of power, and (3) repetition over a period of time.

Bullying is the activity of repeated, aggressive behavior intended to hurt another individual, physically, mentally, or emotionally."
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
An interesting notion. I suppose kids who feel loved and secure at home will have more confidence to stand up to bullies, knowing that they will be supported at least in one area/setting of their life.

More generally, though (question directed at all readers): is it ever acceptable to bully someone? Are there ever circumstances in which someone is deserving of being bullied?

I'd say no with a great deal of certainty but it would also require some defining of the terms.

I never knew a bully who wouldnt try and spin their behaviour in a "I'm the real victim here" way. Claim they were the injured party and only sticking up for themselves etc.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I'd say no with a great deal of certainty but it would also require some defining of the terms.

I never knew a bully who wouldnt try and spin their behaviour in a "I'm the real victim here" way. Claim they were the injured party and only sticking up for themselves etc.
You raise a good point here. I have certainly heard this kind of justification from people engaging in behavior that fits the definition of bullying. I wonder how often a bully really is an injured party who is just not going about addressing his own situation in the right (most productive) way, vs. just someone trying to justify his own bad behavior. I was taught growing up that bad behavior on someone else's part never justifies bad behavior from me, but this point of view is hardly universal.

No it is not. It is criminal activity.

"Bullying is the use of force, coercion, hurtful teasing or threat, to abuse, aggressively dominate or intimidate. The behavior is often repeated and habitual.

One essential prerequisite is the perception (by the bully or by others) of an imbalance of physical or social power. This imbalance distinguishes bullying from conflict.

Bullying is a subcategory of aggressive behavior characterized by the following three criteria: (1) hostile intent, (2) imbalance of power, and (3) repetition over a period of time.

Bullying is the activity of repeated, aggressive behavior intended to hurt another individual, physically, mentally, or emotionally."
To follow up with the idea of definitions, how essential is (2) here, namely the imbalance of power? Is it possible to bully someone who truly is a peer? I have seen bullying behavior that attempts to create a power imbalance, but that isn't the same as one that existed to begin with.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
An interesting notion. I suppose kids who feel loved and secure at home will have more confidence to stand up to bullies, knowing that they will be supported at least in one area/setting of their life.

More generally, though (question directed at all readers): is it ever acceptable to bully someone? Are there ever circumstances in which someone is deserving of being bullied?
I'd say no but i think there is a group social dynamic that can bully as an attempt to modify and normalize the individual with the aberrant behavior. It happens in every social context to at least a mild degree. I don't generally trust that process. On an individual level pushing back against a bully requires some aggressiveness so that could be categorized various ways depending on degree and context. I go for fair fight one-on-one and not group conformity pressure.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
I'd say no but i think there is a group social dynamic that can bully as an attempt to modify and normalize the individual with the aberrant behavior. It happens in every social context to at least a mild degree. I don't generally trust that process. On an individual level pushing back against a bully requires some aggressiveness so that could be categorized various ways depending on degree and context. I go for fair fight one-on-one and not group conformity pressure.

It depends on what the group conformity that's being discussed, I just have terrible visions of someone telling Ted Bundy to "just be yourself" once upon a time.

Groupthink can be a terrible thing, sure, and its rightly criticized but there's a sort that's fine too, all considered.

Plus, fair fights one-on-one? That's a bit romantic, isnt it?
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
You raise a good point here. I have certainly heard this kind of justification from people engaging in behavior that fits the definition of bullying. I wonder how often a bully really is an injured party who is just not going about addressing his own situation in the right (most productive) way, vs. just someone trying to justify his own bad behavior. I was taught growing up that bad behavior on someone else's part never justifies bad behavior from me, but this point of view is hardly universal.


To follow up with the idea of definitions, how essential is (2) here, namely the imbalance of power? Is it possible to bully someone who truly is a peer? I have seen bullying behavior that attempts to create a power imbalance, but that isn't the same as one that existed to begin with.

I think imbalance of power is not a characteristic of the bullying act but is an environmental factor that enables it. That imbalance of power prevents the victim from thwarting back the bully or marks the individual as easy target for the bully.

When the bully becomes aware of the power level difference (it may be physical or social or legal etc.) he/she deliberately picks up on the target just for enjoyment.

So intent to harm for personal pleasure (sadism) and repetition (again sadism) are the actual identifiers whereas power level difference explains how the bully was able to inflict the bullying.
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,708
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
I think imbalance of power is not a characteristic of the bullying act but is an environmental factor that enables it. That imbalance of power prevents the victim from thwarting back the bully or marks the individual as easy target for the bully.

When the bully becomes aware of the power level difference (it may be physical or social or legal etc.) he/she deliberately picks up on the target just for enjoyment.

So intent to harm for personal pleasure (sadism) and repetition (again sadism) are the actual identifiers whereas power level difference explains how the bully was able to inflict the bullying.
Well that type of bully is not really the most proeminent today. I’d say nowadays it’s the weak / cowardly people with low real life status who tend to try and bully people they couldn’t stand up to in real life (because noone would take them seriously). So it’s a whole new dynamic.
 

yeghor

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2013
Messages
4,276
Well that type of bully is not really the most proeminent today. I’d say nowadays it’s the weak / cowardly people with low real life status who tend to try and bully people they couldn’t stand up to in real life (because noone would take them seriously). So it’s a whole new dynamic.

How do they do that?
 

EcK

The Memes Justify the End
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
7,708
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
738
How do they do that?

Lack of normal social cues as to relative social status online. No real repercutions and so on.

My point is that I dont think the core trigger is the power imbalance. It’s the lack of consequences.
 
Top