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  1. #41
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Me too. Those times are pretty rare though... I mean if you were a person who by default resents, begrudges and hates most interaction that you ever have with human beings, I think it'd be safe to say you were the problem, not the people or what they were doing lol
    Eh, not all; thankfully there are some people out there who "pay" me for the effort. I conciously give the fuck off signal when the person is truly being an ass, or creepy, or doesn't respond favourably to me saying "I'm a little tired, maybe some other time". Honestly, for the extroverts who can understand that it's an expenditure for me things work rather well. For the ones that I have to try to explain it to 20 different ways hoping one gets through the cost to benefit ratio slides to the "not worth it" zone.
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  2. #42
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    OK well that was actually very revealing, I appreciate that. That's again though, not a position unique to introverts. I often spend long periods biting my tongue. But usually it's when a person is actually being a real ass and I just don't want to cause trouble for the sake of other, decent people who are present. It's not because I'm not capable of thinking pleasant thoughts about a person that can be expressed lol
    Perhaps the main difference between you and I is that I am incapable of being nice when my train of thought has been interrupted. And there are always several going on at the same time.

    Ah, now this I relate to a lot. It used to be the same way with me ALL the time, and even to this day sometimes I find myself strangely fully aware that I'm giving off some vibe that isn't what I actually feel, and it makes people dislike me. It's usually only with hindsight that I realise I was being defensive because I was nervous for some reason.

    Yes, that's frustrating I know. But just as you can say your immaturity and arrogance isn't to do with introversion, I can say that bigotry and narrow mindedness are by no means a natural or inevitable by-product of extraversion!
    I can accept that your bigotry and narrowmindedness has nothing to do with your extroversion.

    I think perhaps most of my complaints are more NT things rather than I/E things... Although, I usually do want people to fuck off, more often than not. As for why I won't facilitate conversation most of the times, well, why would I facilitate something that I don't really want in the first place?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #43
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    Your response:

    But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...

    I'm no stranger to the idea of someone trying to force me to talk when I don't want to, but I'd figure it was only courtesy to keep a person informed verbally and also to assume at first, give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not actually meaning to irritate me but are doing so out of some misguideed idea or other. So does it really hurt to just say "I'm sorry I don't mean to ignore you, I'm just really not in the mood for X right now, I guess I'm just a bit tired, mind if I just read to myself for a bit?" And I'd be like oh yeah sure, sorry, no problem.

    Surely that's better than just rebutting someone's friendliness with signals that all seem to the E to say "get lost you idiot, I don't need you!"
    Okay... Reread what I said here...

    I think Introversion vs Extroversion is about as difficult a subject to get the other person to understand as Thinking vs Feeling. It gets a little tiring for me sometimes having people feel the need to pull me out of my shell, as if I must be so sad and lonely because I stayed home and watched a movie on a Friday night or I didn't talk enough at so and so's bday party.

    I'm not really intimidated by extroverts. But I do sense they are intimidated by me at times. I pretty much have an attitude of "I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want" most of the time and have no problem dishing that out in a very strong manner if someone comes at me too strongly in their misconstrued perception of what's best for my wellbeing. A lot of my friends over the years have been ENTJ's, who for the most part seemed to respect me and lay off when I stood up and explained this to them.
    Note the bold portion. I do have manners.... I'm a Southern woman and I was bred to be gentile in nature... I will put up with many many things without saying much, but I will and do express myself when needed, in a manner that is polite. I have friends from many different backgrounds and many different personality types. But I have a strong independent mind and I will be introverted if I want to. I enjoy being alone, surfing the net, reading. I enjoy spending time with people who like similar pursuits and can respect my boundaries, but I am also open to many different individuals. I like to have deep conversations and really find out why a person thinks and feels the way they do. The relationships I have with people are often very deep and meaningful because of this. People and their stories interest me, and I am generally well liked. But it gets to be a problem when someone takes special interest in me and wants to improve me somehow. Maybe make me more like them?

    I think the part you misunderstood was that if someone comes at me strongly, I will tell them how it is with enough fervor to make sure they understand me. I do not like that. It makes me incredibly uncomfortable. However, I've found this necessary time and again, especially with female extrovert friends, who feel that I absolutely must get out there and find myself a boyfriend to be happy or get out there to parties to be happy. And they can be quite persistent about it, even though I explain nicely time and again that I'm just not interested. An example would be when I declined to go to a party one friday night and 3 girls showed up at my house and would not leave until I got dressed and went. What they fail to realize is that I AM HAPPY PERFECTLY WELL THE WAY I AM AND DO NOT NEED TO ALTER MYSELF TO BE MORE EXTROVERTED IN ORDER TO DO SO.

    So, I would love to understand how I am the bad guy if I express nicely, time and again, that I don't want to do something... only to be pushed to the point that I have to use strong language to be heard? I'm respect people's extrovertedness... so why is it difficult for a few to understand my introvertedness? I think it's just something that's going to be this way... And some people will just have to hear me roar before they understand the depth of what I'm trying to say.

  4. #44
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    You are demanding the impossible, Mondo.
    For some reason, I'm not surprised to hear that, Haphazard.
    My next piece of advice would be to form bonds with others based on similar interests.
    Some of my best friends are arrogant and have zero empathy but we have a lot of things in common and similar senses of humor..

    Quote Originally Posted by Substitute
    But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...
    I agree with this. That viewpoint is definitely selfish in nature, being unselfish is defined as attending to the needs of others even if they don't coincide with your own needs. It is alright for a person to deal with others like this as long as it doesn't cause physical harm to other people BUT one must call this way of dealing with others selfish.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  5. #45
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I can completely understand your feelings iluvstellacat, because believe it or not, I've very often in the past been victim myself to people who feel the need to 'improve' me, unsolicited pedagogy can be most irritating!!!

    I have an ESFP friend who, though we get along great now, to begin with our friendship nearly faltered at the starting blocks because he insisted on inviting me to these middle class dinner parties where the other guests were like judges and lawyers and surgeons and professors and stuff and I just had nothing to say, at that point I was just a single parent dependent on state welfare and I hadn't been to college, I'd just sit there feeling totally out of my element and like I had nothing to say, even if i did, they didn't listen to me anyway because they just didn't see me as 'good enough'. I'd keep turning down these invitations after a while but this guy would insist it'd be 'good for me' to go, and he'd go on at length with amateur shrink nonsense about how I had to overcome my 'social phobia'. It really annoyed me because as you can see, I'm a VERY sociable person. But nobody likes being a fish out of water all the damn time!!

    There is such a thing as letting a person be themselves and respecting who they are, and people who don't do that are no.1 on my hitlist, I assure you!! But by the same token there's also such a thing as taking responsibility for one's own flaws and self-improvement, and not blaming the triggering of one's flaws and the self-disapppointment we feel when they're triggered, on the person who triggered them when that trigger was just them trying to be friendly...

    -------------

    But this leads me onto something else: I know that it isn't always hard work for introverts to talk. In fact, I know an ISTP who will rant until the cows come home, an ISTJ who will talk forever about movies and the latest scientific theories from New Scientist, and an INFP who will sit on the sofa and, for as long as you keep passing her coffee and cake, she'll keep chattering away with you until the small hours, with no sign whatsoever of fatigue and every sign of feeling quite energized and happy.

    You must admit that at least sometimes, it's not REALLY because talking is such a chore, but perhaps something else? Is it possible that the introvert might sometimse have been too quick to judge a person as not worth talking to? Or do they really want to talk but are just too shy or nervous?

    I mean there has to be some less, well, less aggressive, less hostile reasons why a) an introvert doesn't want to talk and b) an extravert does.
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  6. #46
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvstellacat
    What they fail to realize is that I AM HAPPY PERFECTLY WELL THE WAY I AM AND DO NOT NEED TO ALTER MYSELF TO BE MORE EXTROVERTED IN ORDER TO DO SO.
    I agree that people shouldn't push you to do things you don't want to do.
    They probably find it 'foreign' that you would feel such a way.
    You'll have to let them know subtly that you are not down in the dumps and don't care for much social contact.
    However, you must understand why they would feel offended.

    They may think that you don't like them- especially given their own preference to extraversion.. they are probably thinking, "Why does this person not want to go out with us and just be by herself all night? She must hate spending time with us so much that she would rather be bored at home.."

    However, if you let them know of why you don't want to go out, they may understand better.
    I am a strong iNtuitive myself and I know a lot of Sensors (SJ's in particular) who felt that they needed to improve me.. I am willing to take advice but they learn quickly on that I don't follow the advice unless I can prove to myself that it is reasonable.
    MBTI Type: iNTj
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  7. #47
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Actually I've allowed - nay, encouraged - my own thread to be derailed lol

    I didn't really intend to go into the ins and outs of why people talk or don't or whatever, I was thinking in the OP more specifically about when we're assuming that all the people in question like each other, or at least have nothing against each other, and yet one might not feel confident to approach the other due to perceptions of what we think that person thinks of us.

    For example, the introvert who does actually, for once, want to join the party, but sees the extraverts over there laughing and talking away and just doesn't want to go up and join because they think they'd look stupid or not know what to say. Or the extravert who gets a couple of hours alone in the office with the shiningly intelligent introvert whose contributions to board meetings have caused the E to really admire them and want to talk with them in more depth about their subject, but the E doesn't want to approach the I because he feels the I sees him as shallow and stupid and not worth talking to, and would just rebuff him.

    And how sometimes these perceptions are totally wrong...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #48
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    One on one is best and give me time to provide the answers. In groups I will throw in bits, but if you don't listen you won't hear it. If I see no reaction to what I say I shrug it off and don't bother after a certain point.

    Maybe I am trying to shake 18 years of being programed with "no one cares what you think Run, shut the fuck up".
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  9. #49
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    You must admit that at least sometimes, it's not REALLY because talking is such a chore, but perhaps something else? Is it possible that the introvert might sometimse have been too quick to judge a person as not worth talking to? Or do they really want to talk but are just too shy or nervous?

    I mean there has to be some less, well, less aggressive, less hostile reasons why a) an introvert doesn't want to talk and b) an extravert does.
    Talking isn't a chore most of the time. It's about comfort levels for me. I'm very nervous about interacting with someone I don't know well, because I have no idea how my ideas will be received by the other person. I've been written off time and time again with the phrase, "You're so weird." So, I stopped talking to most people. Every once in a while I do find people who seem to be open to me being myself, and when I find those people I eventually open up and talk more (often until my throat hurts or I literally start falling asleep out of exhaustion).

    I understand that this is my problem, not the extravert's. I'm trying very hard to overcome it and be more confident and be able to be more personable, but it's been a long and slow process.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

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  10. #50
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Actually I've allowed - nay, encouraged - my own thread to be derailed lol

    I didn't really intend to go into the ins and outs of why people talk or don't or whatever, I was thinking in the OP more specifically about when we're assuming that all the people in question like each other, or at least have nothing against each other, and yet one might not feel confident to approach the other due to perceptions of what we think that person thinks of us.
    Whether I'm comfortable talking to introverts depends entirely on how introverted they are. When I try to talk to REALLY introverted people, I get really thrown off, because I can only function in a conversation when I get equal contribution on the other side. (And by "contribution", I mean talking.)

    But then again, I know this introvert who never says anything unnecessary, and always has the right thing to say, and never says anything mean or rude. He pretty much seems perfect at first glance. I have a very hard time talking to him because it's like talking to a saint and it makes me feel like a bad person. Do any of you know people like this?
    Last edited by EJCC; 08-31-2008 at 01:20 PM. Reason: I accidentally lied...

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