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  1. #121
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Oh, but I'm not humorous at all.

    What I can't stand is that people can insist on talking when there's shit that's got to be done. It's impossible to get anybody to do anything when they're busy socializing. I remember I heard once that NTJs are 'coordinators.' I know from experience that it is impossible for more than one person to be coordinated at a time. Therefore, I prefer to be alone.

    I can talk about nothing when there's nothing better to do. The only problem is that there is always something better to do -- on top of that, 80% of the time, there is something I should be doing instead. And apparently, attending to things that need to be done makes me a horrible person.

    For some reason the people around me have boundless energy to waste talking to each other. I guess for them, talking is a free action, while for me it's a major feat. I don't know. I can't stand delay forced upon me by people who insist on just talking.

    On top of that, what I say doesn't make any sense to me anyway, and it usually doesn't make any sense to other people, either. For some reason, what I type is usually halfway coherent, but it's not so when I talk. And when I actually speak, the words are just gone. My thoughts leave. It's insubstantial. Expression makes it meaningless, when it comes to more important matters. It would probably be better for me if I could even just cough out words like most people instead of them being forced out with violent, wracking heaves -- but then I'd probably end up alienating people from me even more.

    But these are just my own pains, not caused by introversion... but certainly facilitated by it.
    I find that if I can get on the same wave length as the person I'm working with, co-ordination + more hands = stuff gets done quicker and/or better. Though I see the use for it though, I still need help actually getting it done. Heh, any takers on helping this guy out? I'm pretty self-sufficient and useful otherwise, just need a little direction and cuddle time once a week.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  2. #122
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I

    I love conversations like that!!

    For me smalltalk, talking about 'safe' stuff is about just testing the water, it's opening negotiations, you could say. I'm starting off asking you about things I hope you won't have any difficulty answering and hopefully things that can't be offensive to anyone or whatever, but going by the way you answer I'll pick up vibes about what kinda person you are and where your limits of what you want to talk about or might be offended by etc, are, from the subtle stuff like body language etc, and it's the same with most extraverts I think. We just don't want to go diving into deep and meaningful stuff without knowing it's alright with you to do that, it's not because we can't or don't enjoy talking about anything meaningful or imaginative, like ever.
    I find it interesting that I get told by people that I'm either impossible to read or easy to read. Mostly impossible to. But I would rather talk about meaningful and imaginative over everything else. And I know that Es can talk that stuff. My room mate's an I and she's really hard to have that kind of conversation with.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Agree.

    I am not intimidated to approach an extrovert, but I feel invaded or harassed by entroverts who get aggressive with the:

    "Hey! Speak up!"
    "You're too quiet!" Usually shouted.
    "Lighten Up!" repeated like broken record.

    But extroverts who come to realize that I just need time to warm up are delightful.
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post



    Yeah, I'd love that kind of conversation. I hate conversations like, "So! What do you like to do for fun?" I have no idea how to answer that. And I feel pressure to be interesting. And I feel like I probably won't be interesting. So I'd rather just stay in my head, where it's interesting all the time. Who knows, maybe we should all open with the elephant line and see where it takes us?

    They should do a study where for one year a group of people open with that line whenever they meet someone new, and some how record their reactions. That would probably make an interesting documentary.
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I've seen what a countrified redneck lifestyle can do to an INTP. It's bizarre.
    story time?



    I think most people don't see themselves as intimidating, that out of all my friends I'm the most likely to be approached by a stranger and asked directions or what time something is or if I have a lighter. I don't know why. I don't see myself as intimidating, but maybe I am.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #123
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    To me it seems as if the positive energy in me either increases or decreases based on how the interaction goes.

    I get down in a hole fast sometimes in a social situation, and I hate that. It's like a negative spriral starts and pretty soon I'm sitting there numb. But if I'm in the right kind of mood, it doesn't happen. I can get a positive vibe going and keep it going. When I'm down in the hole, I have very low energy. I'm bored, and I'm in endurance mode. I sometimes smile weakly at people at feel so lame when I do. I feel stuck. It's almost like being a child stuck in a car waiting to finally get to the destination and be able to get out.

    To an extent, I've learned to prevent the down in the hole thing from happening by taking the initiative early and focusing on the other person by asking them questions. Then if this starts a spark, it's just a matter of fanning it to keep it from dying out. Then sometimes I'll get more into the conversation and be able to find my groove.

  4. #124
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Back to your original premise, Substitute: my greatest difficulties come from moods and reticence, particularly of IxxPs.

    For me, extroversion is relative. Nobody would call me a gabber but around others I will immediately stand out as talkative or assertive. And I'm doggoned well declarative.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    My extraversion is greatly reliant upon the other party and if they strike a topic that I'm both interested in and knowledgeable about. This usually gets me and the extravert in question frustrated in the long run, because I wont do much seeking, and I wont talk about a lot of topics just to talk about them. EF's though that I like usually have me intimidated because I'm so dependent on being prodded to engage that I inadvertently give them the keys and they take it a lot further and more personal than I would like(and a hell of a lot quicker).
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It occurred to me over a period of time that many introverts are shy and nervous, even intimidated by many extraverts.

    But it seems they're mostly unaware that extraverts can find introverts incredibly intimidating too.

    Thoughts, anyone? Do you find your opposite difficult to approach or are you nervous of them, and if so or even if not, then why?
    For me, the reason I don't talk has little to do with shyness, or intimidation or dislike of the people I am with. The simple reason is I don't have a lot to say, and certainly not much to say in "small packets."

    To get a feel for the "small packet" comment, (I'm more a visual person) try to put together and present a slide-set where you are allowed only 1 letter/symbol per slide, and must field questions after every slide. Then, try to do it without the slides (but still only 1 lettler/symbol at a time).

    I first found out that I could be intimidating to people when I saw an EDA salesman sweating profusely (physically) in a rather frigid room, but only after I raised my hand to ask a question (I hadn't asked anything before). But he kept looking around, and finally called on me. I asked a simple question, and the guy was visibly calmer from that moment on. I am not sure if I give off an "Introvert vibe."

    Since then, I have noticed it often in people in many different settings (not the sweating per say, but just a feeling that I was being intimidating for some reason). My brother does the same thing to many people too (he's an ISFP).

    Someone finally told me what (I think) the issue was:"This guy just doesn't react." Which is probably true. So, I've consciously make an effort make acknowledging nods and expressions. It is certainly not natural, and I still slip into the "not reacting" mode often.

    IRL, I am the most introverted person I know (or have ever known, save maybe two people). I don't mean to intimidate, and thought shyness does play a role from time to time. I attribute my relative silence simply to a "different cadence" of thought and (therefore) expression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    What I don't understand is - what is the real problem? I mean - why is it so hard to step outside of your brain for a moment and interact with others? I'm not trying to be a snarky ass here, I'm serious. I just don't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leysing View Post
    It's a physiological (and difficult and awkward and exhausting) thing. Too much blood flow in the frontal lobes and the anterior thalamus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Heh. Sounds like a weird variety of bird.

    Okay, I will take your word for it.
    There is proof for the physiological basis of this. Introverts use a longer and slower pathway for cognition than extroverts.

    Of course, neuro-plasticity is with us for our entire lives, so it ought to be able to enhance the other pathway through practice (you are actually rewiring you brain here, so it means A LOT of practice). But what is the incentive to practice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I have a question for the introverts here.

    Would you be content living your life as a hermit?
    I depends on what you mean by that. I contend that I DO live like a hermit. Now, if you mean retire into the woods with no access to technology, and hunting/gathering etc. Then no, I would not live like a hermit.

    As far as the amenities of a modern technological comfort being "off-limits" to introverts who don't want the fruits of extroverted labor, there are more introvert engineers and technicians than extroverts, 3 to 1 or so.

    Why the question?

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    This may sound a bit strange, but I'm easily intimidated by INFJs. I don't know. They just seem so contained and mysterious, and for some reason, I always expect that they're going to react in more adult manner than me on any subject from self-adhesive envelopes to spandex trademark infringement. They see some angle I don't, and then they might say it aloud, and then I'll be sitting there thinking, "Good point. I didn't see that" and everyone's nodding, "oh yes, INFJ person has done it again! how clever!"

    I feel like the drunk aunt with the skirt over her head.

    ISTJs and INFPs can be very intimidating for me too.

    I don't find most Es to be daunting.
    I find INFJs can be intimidating for different reasons.

    However, I find I have the types of reactions you mentioned with ENTPs. They seem to be able to see just a few more possibilities and/or be able to think just a little bit more "out-of-the-box" than me. Perhaps this is because their primary is my secondary. That is their effort-less Ne (connected to Ti) is so effort-full for me. On the other hand, I've been told by an ENTP former boss that I go "too quickly to the point."

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  7. #127
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    What it is, is that the E thinks the reason the I isn't talking is because they're nervous or don't feel at ease, or that nobody's said anything that's triggered the I's interest. So what the E might be doing is trying their damnedest to a) assure the I that they're welcome and that their contributions are valued and b) keep saying different stuff in the hopes the I will find something of interest and respond.

    The E doesn't know it, but he's making the I feel bombarded and like you describe nolla. But the I doesn't realise that by retreating further and further they're making the E feel like nothing they can do or say is of any interest, that they're seen as contemptible and not worth their time. Without realising it, the I is making the E feel very frustrated and even hurt, because as far as the E is concerned, if someone has something to say then why don't they just say it? And if they don't have anything to say and just don't feel like talking, why not just say that also? Why sit there and let me blabber on, boring you to death??
    I've seen this in action (and had it happen to me too on the odd occasion). The extravert talks more and more in an effort to provoke a reaction from an introvert, but the more the extravert talks, the harder it is for the introvert to actually speak, making the extravert even more frustrated who talks more to get a reaction etc etc. It seems to be more likely to happen at the extreme ends of the scale - extreme extraverts and extreme introverts.

    I think it's to do with thinking time for introverts - it's hard to get the words out and when bombarded with someone else speaking, it's kinda like the mind shuts down.

    I know you're talking about socialising but let me give you an example from my work. If someone comes to my desk and asks me a question, usually I need to tell them to go away (politely) while I think about it. I need the mental space to do it. If they sit there my mind skates around and I can't focus, specially if they're still talking at me. As soon as they go away, I can focus and think clearly. Then I go back to them and tell them the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I think the case of me meeting half way is to keep the conversation "light". Humor and stuff. The problem comes at play when the extrovert is enthusiastic about what he's saying. I need time to think about it, and this could seem like I'm not interested.
    Yep, pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I
    But this leads me onto something else: I know that it isn't always hard work for introverts to talk. In fact, I know an ISTP who will rant until the cows come home, an ISTJ who will talk forever about movies and the latest scientific theories from New Scientist, and an INFP who will sit on the sofa and, for as long as you keep passing her coffee and cake, she'll keep chattering away with you until the small hours, with no sign whatsoever of fatigue and every sign of feeling quite energized and happy.

    You must admit that at least sometimes, it's not REALLY because talking is such a chore, but perhaps something else? Is it possible that the introvert might sometimse have been too quick to judge a person as not worth talking to? Or do they really want to talk but are just too shy or nervous?

    I mean there has to be some less, well, less aggressive, less hostile reasons why a) an introvert doesn't want to talk and b) an extravert does.
    It depends on the person. Some people are easier to talk to than others. I also take a long time to warm up to people. IRL, I am usually ambivalent or annoyed by most people when I first meet them, and sometimes I even dislike them. I tend to feel more positive towards people and grow to like them after I get to know them. I used to be very stand-offish with people until I realised this about myself. So these days I make myself talk to people and get to know them, because I know from experience I will eventually learn to like them (well, most of them, heh).

    Not sure if any other introverts experience this or whether this is just one of my own weird quirks.

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    One on one is best and give me time to provide the answers. In groups I will throw in bits, but if you don't listen you won't hear it. If I see no reaction to what I say I shrug it off and don't bother after a certain point.
    I'm definitely like this in team meetings. I've usually thought through things pretty carefully, and it is an effort for me to speak up. If I get drowned out by the really loud talkative people, I just give up. I'd like to learn how to perservere in groups with loud dominant personalities, but haven't made much progress with this - I suspect it's a combination of introversion and lack of confidence for me.

    I sometimes also wish the extreme extraverts in my team would take the time to learn how to listen a bit more effectively - I guess it's the meeting halfway thing. I usually feel like it's me who has to flex and that very few people flex to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Yeah, exactly. And that is what frustrates the hell out of me regarding Is. Jeez Louise folks - open your mouths. It ain't hard. And if you don't say anything, I cannot read what is going on in your brain. So I either think a) You feel uncomfy, and I want to help you to try to relax. b) You just don't give a shit or c) You are just retarded. In the case of b or c, I am likely to just move on and think, "What a dipshit! This person has a tree so far up their ass that there is no hope for them. And if they ARE so bright, why don't THEY introduce a topic?!"
    ^^^ I sometimes come across this attitude IRL and to be honest, it's quite annoying. Kinda like if you're not a chatty extravert then there's something wrong with you. Grr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    What I don't understand is - what is the real problem? I mean - why is it so hard to step outside of your brain for a moment and interact with others? I'm not trying to be a snarky ass here, I'm serious. I just don't get it.
    Because it is hard. I can sort of do it on autopilot now for topics I don't care about. But I can't think hard and speak at the same time, even one on one. I go silent so I can think. If I'm speaking, I'm not really thinking because speaking takes up a lot of processing power for me.

    Edit: Just for comparison, occasionally what goes through my head when I'm around an extreme extravert is things like 'oh my goodness, do you have to say out loud every freaking thought that goes through you mind, could you please stfu for 5 seconds and think about things for once?' So it can go both ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    I have a question for the introverts here.

    Would you be content living your life as a hermit?
    No, not really. I like interacting with people at work and enjoy having the evenings and weekends to myself. But if I didn't have a job that involved me talking to people, I'd probably go a bit stir-crazy without contact. I like talking to people - just in small doses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Also, it becomes a matter of compared value. When Extraverts seem to take interest in anyone and anything, it makes me feel really unspecial. Like I'm just another pebble in the gravel.
    Yeah, I've felt that too with some Es. I keep the friendship or whatever going, but I try not to delude myself that I mean that much to people who already have a gazillion friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I'm the same if I've been in a 'fish out of water' situation. Not all social interaction energizes me. One of my Aunt Dawn's famous family reunion barbecues is a prime example - I spend a whole day feeling completely disapproved of, disappointed in, misunderstood, like a failure and a freak and I hate, hate, hate it. There are some people in my extended family I love to see but most of them I don't relate to at all, I'm totally a black sheep. I'd so rather go home and just have a beer or two with my best pal and talk shit the evening long, or just sit and watch old Star Trek DVD's on my own and get the dishes done. But I know that to some people it means a lot, me going to this damned thing, and in the end it's easier to just go and grit my teeth through it than to wade through the fallout if I don't. And in the end, it's just a few hours every couple months or so, not the end of the world.

    So I go...

    Actually at the end of that barbecue I feel like I really totally do need to be alone for a bit. It's really stressful for me and I can't talk about it with anyone cos nobody does really get why it's so stressful. So it can be annoying when after I've come back from there some friends call and want to come over (as usual) with DVD's and pizza for the evening and I have to say no, and I know they try to be understanding but I know they're hurt, really.
    Perhaps if you imagine that for extreme introverts, they experience socialising like you experience your family barbecues? That might help you understand it a bit better.

    Not that I put myself in that category of extreme I-ness, but when I'm feeling really drained, socialising is hard work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    It's true, and I do try to make an effort to keep the friendship going, but I am also very out-of-sight, out-of-mind sometimes, too. I'm just not the kind of person that feels like i have to be in constant contact. If I don't hear from you, I don't assume that you're mad, etc. I just assume people are busy, and I am, too, and we'll get together sometime.
    Yep, that's how I view a lot of my friendships. I particularly like friendships that if you happen not to see them for a few weeks or a few months, it's no big deal and you pick up from when you last saw them. I have a friend from college like this. She lives in a different city and we both kinda suck at emailing, phoning or writing letters. But we'll catch up in person a couple of times a year - maybe me and my partner will go away with her family on a short holiday or whatever, and it's very comfortable being around her, despite the very infrequent contact.

    Thanks for starting this thread, substitute. Very interesting.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  8. #128
    seor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Also, it becomes a matter of compared value. When Extraverts seem to take interest in anyone and anything, it makes me feel really unspecial. Like I'm just another pebble in the gravel.

    For whatever reason, I've developed strong feelings almost exlusively for Extraverts in my personal life, so I've become all too aquainted with this feeling of insignifigance.
    I can relate to this a lot. Although I did manage to find an extravert who chose me. A very introspective extravert, though.

    I'm a jealous and possessive man.
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  9. #129
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    WEEEEEHAWWWW! I've worked in the blue collar realm, off and on.
    Exhibit A.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Have you been spying on me?
    You know it!


    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I find it interesting that I get told by people that I'm either impossible to read or easy to read. Mostly impossible to. But I would rather talk about meaningful and imaginative over everything else. And I know that Es can talk that stuff. My room mate's an I and she's really hard to have that kind of conversation with.
    I use Fi a lot, but as to dismantling an Fi-primary? I'm at a loss. I know how to move with them, but not against them.

    story time?
    Fish out of water, really. We got on alarmingly well. I caused him no little distress because he figured I could see through him. Never seemed happy or "okay" with the state of things, like he was worried that someone would "out" him a largely S landscape. But it was only me that noticed the INTP telltale signs. He just didn't fit at all. Restless guy. Quiet. Sharp. Just totally underutilized and he knew it, and I know he felt like he should be doing something else somewhere else, anywhere at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post

    However, I find I have the types of reactions you mentioned with ENTPs. They seem to be able to see just a few more possibilities and/or be able to think just a little bit more "out-of-the-box" than me. Perhaps this is because their primary is my secondary. That is their effort-less Ne (connected to Ti) is so effort-full for me. On the other hand, I've been told by an ENTP former boss that I go "too quickly to the point."
    I can read my INFJ dad through experience, and because I'm a chip off that block. But female-energy INFJs? Difficulty at times. They're just so mysterious. Ni-primary seems to be a veil over the face of Fe. If they aren't direct with me, I may have trouble following their mood shifts. You'd think that wouldn't be an issue with me seeing as I'm eNFJ at best, but slotting the Fe forward seems to make all the difference in interpretation.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  10. #130
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I use Fi a lot, but as to dismantling an Fi-primary? I'm at a loss. I know how to move with them, but not against them.
    I kinda wonder if the people I'm able to understand the most are Fi-primary and vice-versa. That might not be true at all, some of the people who claim to be able to read me might be misinterpreting my actions, and me doing the same. I know this has to be true.the last part; not the first. I'm still confused as to whether their's any truth to the first part.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Fish out of water, really. We got on alarmingly well. I caused him no little distress because he figured I could see through him. Never seemed happy or "okay" with the state of things, like he was worried that someone would "out" him a largely S landscape. But it was only me that noticed the INTP telltale signs. He just didn't fit at all. Restless guy. Quiet. Sharp. Just totally underutilized and he knew it, and I know he felt like he should be doing something else somewhere else, anywhere at all.
    Yeah, I can't see an N Thriving in an strongly S world especially an INTP. Or anywhere where theirs a lot of close minded people around. I don't think I could thrive their even, especially if I knew no other Ns. I'm not saying that I hate sensors. I don't I'm saying, if I lived with only Ss I'd have skewed view of them and myself and probably the same if I grew up with only Ns. What I'm saying is you need a balance of different types in your life to understand the world and your self. As differences sometimes help you to see your short comings; of course this only works if you reflect.


    (so my view of myself is probably skewed anyways, but more so)
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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