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  1. #1
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Default NF vs. NT Debate! (Fun and Educational)

    AntiSocial one and myself would like to debate each other. Any others who want to participate within the spirit and scope of the debate are welcome to join. We are not mad at each other, and we realize that all types have their gifts and weaknesses. We just think it would be fun and interesting to argue with each other so that we can, as it were, test NT wits against NF wits and see what we can learn from it and how much fun we can have in the process. Okay, let the debate begin!

    AntiSocial one, you first. State your initial argument.

  2. #2
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Isn't this more properly titled "Squirrel Tao v. AntiSocial debate"?
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  3. #3
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I don't want to start with some big argument so I will with a small one.
    This is just to get started.


    As I have said in the other thread that I have impression that F take things too personaly. Sometimes they even create deep connection with something and they defend it at all cost even if it is very ilogical to do it.

    What can be quite bad for them in business environment is alot of NTs.
    NFs will say that they are good with people. But they are not that good with people because they have large problems with NTs. Every time NT becomes impersonal NFs suffer because of that and usually says that NT is acting like a jerk.
    Also it looks to me that have really hard time to get used to a way how expressed NTs are functioning.


    They have problems in understanding that things do not have to be linked to emotions.
    They usually say that they know that as a fact but they almost never act like this and they don't like this aproach.



    Just to clear my position to everybody.
    I am defending position of strong T not absolute T.

  4. #4
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    Isn't this more properly titled "Squirrel Tao v. AntiSocial debate"?
    Not if other people join in. I guess that depends on others.

  5. #5
    Member Hang's Avatar
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    I'm starting to admire INTJs a bit more because of what Antisocial one said. And he or she is right. I have somewhat experienced with INTJ, and everytime I get home, I consider them as jerks. But every F at times comes to understand how a T thinks. I grew up around them. And I laugh at what Antisocial one posted, because I can relate to bits of it. As an INFJ, there's a T hidden in those dark creveses (spelled wrong).

  6. #6
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    AntiSocial one, so your premise is that NFs do not function well in a business environment working with NTs because they take things too personally? So I'm supposed to be the representative of all NFs and say that they do not take things too personally and that they do well in business and get along famously with NTs? That sounds like a management issue in your workplace. I can only speak for myself from my own experience, as I lack detailed data about how NTs and NFs work together.

    All I can tell you, AntiSocial one, is that I worked in an IT department for 8 years, and everybody in my department hated each other. The network group was the elite mandarin group, and they would not work as a team with the rest of us. The guys responsible for fixing the PCs were always running their butts off. They could not go to the vending machine or the bathroom without being bugged by ten users at once. The help desk functioned like little more than glorified receptionists and would not ask questions and would enter tickets that did not make any sense at all. The clerical people were always in the middle of drama and spent their time making life hard for the guys responsible for fixing the PCs. The managers avoided problems. The programmers were okay. They just sat there quietly working on their programs. The consultants and contractors were arrogant and spoiled.

    AntiSocial one, I had a hard time there at first, but I do not think that any of the people giving me grief were NTs, except maybe one - but if so, then he was not a mature NT. The trouble I had was that I kept being thrown to the lions with no training and I kept being given the messes of others to clean up. I had many users that I had to support, and they drove me crazy many times, but I got used to it, and I got used to being calm and solution-oriented. So all I can say is that I as an NF, despite being very sensitive by nature and being an easy cryer as a child, was able to support users and troubleshoot their issues and provide them with good customer service while working with a lot of difficult people who did not get along with each other.

    Was it stressful for me? Yes, but I had coping mechanisms. One way I coped was to accept things without tolerating them. Huh? What does that mean? Well, what it means is that you can often make something stupid have a smart result if you approach it creatively. For example, as the intranet webmaster, I had always wanted to redesign the intranet, but it was never a priority for any of my managers. Well, a user put in a request to have the intranet security tightened up. So I used that as an excuse to rewrite the whole intranet in ASP.NET and redesign the whole thing to bring it up to modern web standards. Then the user who submitted the request ended up saying he did not need it after all. But I was not displeased. I had gotten what I wanted. And in the process, I had also benefited the business, too.

    Did I get attached to certain things? Yes, I did, but you know what? When my feelings corresponded with a business need, I was capable of working feverishly. Plenty of times business needs did not coincide with my feelings. At these times I would still usually find some way to get something out of it. That is the whole way I got into my line of work in the first place. I found myself in a situation that I did not like and then I figured out what I could get out of it. It was win-win for me and the business.

    The point of this personal narrative is that feelings and attitudes can bring creativity to business and benefit the business while leading to greater employee productivity. It all depends on the way that the feelings and attitudes are harnessed. What it takes is opportunism and flexibility on the part of the employee. It is possible for them to figure out how to make their situation work both for them and for the business.

  7. #7
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelTao View Post
    AntiSocial one, so your premise is that NFs do not function well in a business environment working with NTs because they take things too personally? So I'm supposed to be the representative of all NFs and say that they do not take things too personally and that they do well in business and get along famously with NTs? That sounds like a management issue in your workplace. I can only speak for myself from my own experience, as I lack detailed data about how NTs and NFs work together.

    All I can tell you, AntiSocial one, is that I worked in an IT department for 8 years, and everybody in my department hated each other. The network group was the elite mandarin group, and they would not work as a team with the rest of us. The guys responsible for fixing the PCs were always running their butts off. They could not go to the vending machine or the bathroom without being bugged by ten users at once. The help desk functioned like little more than glorified receptionists and would not ask questions and would enter tickets that did not make any sense at all. The clerical people were always in the middle of drama and spent their time making life hard for the guys responsible for fixing the PCs. The managers avoided problems. The programmers were okay. They just sat there quietly working on their programs. The consultants and contractors were arrogant and spoiled.

    AntiSocial one, I had a hard time there at first, but I do not think that any of the people giving me grief were NTs, except maybe one - but if so, then he was not a mature NT. The trouble I had was that I kept being thrown to the lions with no training and I kept being given the messes of others to clean up. I had many users that I had to support, and they drove me crazy many times, but I got used to it, and I got used to being calm and solution-oriented. So all I can say is that I as an NF, despite being very sensitive by nature and being an easy cryer as a child, was able to support users and troubleshoot their issues and provide them with good customer service while working with a lot of difficult people who did not get along with each other.

    Was it stressful for me? Yes, but I had coping mechanisms. One way I coped was to accept things without tolerating them. Huh? What does that mean? Well, what it means is that you can often make something stupid have a smart result if you approach it creatively. For example, as the intranet webmaster, I had always wanted to redesign the intranet, but it was never a priority for any of my managers. Well, a user put in a request to have the intranet security tightened up. So I used that as an excuse to rewrite the whole intranet in ASP.NET and redesign the whole thing to bring it up to modern web standards. Then the user who submitted the request ended up saying he did not need it after all. But I was not displeased. I had gotten what I wanted. And in the process, I had also benefited the business, too.

    Did I get attached to certain things? Yes, I did, but you know what? When my feelings corresponded with a business need, I was capable of working feverishly. Plenty of times business needs did not coincide with my feelings. At these times I would still usually find some way to get something out of it. That is the whole way I got into my line of work in the first place. I found myself in a situation that I did not like and then I figured out what I could get out of it. It was win-win for me and the business.

    The point of this personal narrative is that feelings and attitudes can bring creativity to business and benefit the business while leading to greater employee productivity. It all depends on the way that the feelings and attitudes are harnessed. What it takes is opportunism and flexibility on the part of the employee. It is possible for them to figure out how to make their situation work both for them and for the business.


    Squirrel do you have any idea what you have done by posting this?

    My main point was that NFs take things too personally.

    I did not say anything about your work or your job. But look what I got, entire page of defending personal standpoint and there was absolutly no reason what so ever for you to feel personaly attacked.

  8. #8
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post


    Squirrel do you have any idea what you have done by posting this?

    My main point was that NFs take things too personally.

    I did not say anything about your work or your job. But look what I got, entire page of defending personal standpoint and there was absolutly no reason what so ever for you to feel personaly attacked.
    Just because I'm speaking for myself, as opposed to speaking on behalf of all NFs, does not mean that I feel personally attacked. I stated at the outset that I lack detailed data about how NTs deal with NFs. Therefore I can only speak from my personal experience as an NF.

  9. #9
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    NFs will say that they are good with people. But they are not that good with people because they have large problems with NTs. Every time NT becomes impersonal NFs suffer because of that and usually says that NT is acting like a jerk.
    hmmm. i don't find this to be true with most of my NF friends, especially the male ones.

    anyone who says they're good with people and can't deal with NTs is probably pretty immature...

    personally, i find NTs easier to deal with than NFs. i don't have to tiptoe as much...

  10. #10
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    I was wondering how you differentiate between typical NF behavior and people who are just and happen to be NFs? (You could make the same statement about NTs as well.)

    Many misunderstandings between types start with bad experiences. Things like:
    There were these bullies at school and they were [insert type here]
    There was this boss who made life hell for everyone at the office and she was [insert type here]

    So do you respond by saying this is not typical of the type, or this is what happens when a type goes bad. Different types seem to go bad in different ways. I find that interesting but maybe not relevant to promoting understanding.

    Also, is this discusion about F and T or just NF and NT?

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