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  1. #51
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    But why did you mention that you do not know about almost nothing about NT - NF relations at work?
    I thought I did say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Why didn't you create theoretical model for you argument but instead you gave a lot of personal information?
    The personal information provided more possibilities for how feelings can relate to work besides "having feelings = seeing NTs as jerks". Feelings can come into work in positive ways as well. I provided personal examples of how this can work, but the options I provided are not unique to me. I'm sure others must have discovered how to cope in these same ways before. At any rate, more possibilities exist besides the negative side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Since topic is what it is I dont see a reason to post so much and in so many painfull details if you don't feel personaly attacked or emotionaly connected to situation.
    The reason to provide personal details is because the only data I have about how an NF uses feelings in the workplace comes from my own personal experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    If you want to say that you are proud of what you have achieved that is ok.
    Don't you think that this job would have been easier in the case that it wasn't so stressfull. The stronger T can have easy time in many situation because they don't create emotional connection with the situation.
    I disagree. My husband is a stronger T than myself, but he gets more stressed at work, because he has a harder time accepting stupidity.

  2. #52
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    AntiSocial one, let me provide the next topic of debate.

    Has the human intellect done more harm or good in the world? Are we in technological, civilized society really better off than indigenous people living deep in the rainforest? (to the extent that some still do without being disrupted) Can we humans with our capacity for reason and technology really do better than evolution already did?

  3. #53
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelTao View Post
    AntiSocial one, let me provide the next topic of debate.

    Has the human intellect done more harm or good in the world? Are we in technological, civilized society really better off than indigenous people living deep in the rainforest? (to the extent that some still do without being disrupted) Can we humans with our capacity for reason and technology really do better than evolution already did?
    In a recent survey on happiness, hunter-gatherers supposedly reported a level of happiness equalling or exceeding that of modern technological man. Of course, you have to take these surveys with a pinch of salt because it all depends on how you define "happiness".
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  4. #54
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    First I want to end this part.


    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelTao View Post
    The personal information provided more possibilities for how feelings can relate to work besides "having feelings = seeing NTs as jerks". Feelings can come into work in positive ways as well. I provided personal examples of how this can work, but the options I provided are not unique to me. I'm sure others must have discovered how to cope in these same ways before. At any rate, more possibilities exist besides the negative side.
    The reason to provide personal details is because the only data I have about how an NF uses feelings in the workplace comes from my own personal experience.
    The whole point here is that you could have dodged the question by giving another question as answer or giving far more indirect answer. Why didn't you, I don't know.


    Case closed.

    Now I am going to our first real chapter.

  5. #55
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquirrelTao View Post
    AntiSocial one, let me provide the next topic of debate.

    Has the human intellect done more harm or good in the world? Are we in technological, civilized society really better off than indigenous people living deep in the rainforest? (to the extent that some still do without being disrupted) Can we humans with our capacity for reason and technology really do better than evolution already did?
    In this topic I will take classical definitions of right and wrong.


    Human intellect can do many things that are quite usefull. But evolution is very slow process so human brain did not have the time to adapt to current situation.
    What I mean by this is that there was no time to weaken the F function in it's way of functioning and lower it's representation in population.(In Fs and Ts)

  6. #56
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The whole point here is that you could have dodged the question by giving another question as answer or giving far more indirect answer. Why didn't you, I don't know.
    Yes, I know I could have challenged you for proof of your assertion or something like that. Thing is, I want my debates to be interesting, even if it means taking more risks. Playing it only by safe strategies is boring to me.

  7. #57
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    In this topic I will take classical definitions of right and wrong.
    Which are? ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Human intellect can do many things that are quite usefull. But evolution is very slow process so human brain did not have the time to adapt to current situation.
    I also believe this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    What I mean by this is that there was no time to weaken the F function in it's way of functioning and lower it's representation in population.(In Fs and Ts)
    But I disagree with this. I think the problem is that the T function bit off more than it could chew while not being sufficiently influenced by either the F or the N functions.

    And now we have both made unsupported assertions.

    What shall we do next?


  8. #58
    Member sophiedoph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I don't want to start with some big argument so I will with a small one.
    This is just to get started.


    As I have said in the other thread that I have impression that F take things too personaly. Sometimes they even create deep connection with something and they defend it at all cost even if it is very ilogical to do it.

    What can be quite bad for them in business environment is alot of NTs.
    NFs will say that they are good with people. But they are not that good with people because they have large problems with NTs. Every time NT becomes impersonal NFs suffer because of that and usually says that NT is acting like a jerk.
    I disagree. At least this INFJ can handle most general NT/T bluntness. I have issues when the bluntness/criticism seems based on vengefulness or general dislike.

    If someone whose opinion I care about is upset with me, it is very difficult for me to get past that.

    Constructive criticism and general bluntness is fine.

    I agree that it is a problem in the business/legal world--Fs often need to be able to disregard the opinion of others, but it's hard to develop, at least for me. I can't turn off my empathing, absorbing the feelings of those around me.

    That said, I am a decently successful business owner and also have a career in a largely TJ dominated field. I am surprisingly *excellent* at negotiating settlements for my clients (who often don't have a bat's chance in hell), in large part, I believe, to my ability to connect with others.

    All that said, I definitely think Fs can bring a lot to the table in business, etc.

  9. #59
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    Also, is this discusion about F and T or just NF and NT?
    It started out being in my mind about NF vs. NT. Now it appears to have turned into T vs. N and F.

  10. #60
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    i have come to think about those T and F things

    What if you think about mankind like aeons of time back. Their perception towards reality has to has developed somehow.

    If you think about T being the ultimate function to understand nature and the physical world, due to it being inherently logical.

    Then it could be that F is the function that understands the human, who are the only thing in nature that is inherently illogical.

    That would it make a perception style of the world that has developed through aeons of years by perceiving how humans are best to behave with each other. In terms of self-preservation. And that counts for the T and the F.

    The only differences would be:

    T = understanding of thw world (for example the hunt, to feed the family)

    F = understanding of human development (for example caring and nurturing the family)

    In addition this would explain why woman are more prone to F and men to T. Because in the long run of mankind's history woman have been incapacitated to become hunters, cause they were in the business of conceiving. Gosh my english is bad, I hope you do understand me.
    I think there's a lot to this, but I would like to point out that women were gatherers and made crafts and grew agricultural plants and did fishing, so they related to nature as well. In tribal societies women have more help with caring for their babies. Also they wear their babies and have their hands free. Babies are much easier and happier. Thus women find it easier to combine mothering with making an economic contribution to their society. I would relate my experience with my baby, with trying to get as close as possible to more traditional parenting practices in postmodern America. But then AntiSocial one would say I am feeling it too personally. So I guess I can't share valuable insights that come from my personal experience if they are relevant. Sorry.

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