How do people lie to themselves?

[uumlau]

Everyone lies to themselves. It's a standard coping mechanism and is actually useful for tucking stuff away until we have time to deal with it. If something is really wrong, however, lying to oneself becomes highly problematic. The same problems will arise over and over again and nothing seems to work, because our lies to ourselves lead us to "fix" the wrong problems.

What are specific mechanisms that people use to lie to themselves? I've outlined a couple elsewhere, but it's in a private blog that not everyone can access, and this needs to be a more general discussion with more people involved.

The two mechanisms I've outlined map to INFJ and ESTJ, more or less, but I think the typological tendencies aren't that specific. I suspect they really map to Ni and Si.

The Ni mechanism: Ni will elide the truth. Ni is always looking at things from different perspectives. Usually, this is an Occam's Razor approach: the simplest explanation is usually the best, so Ni changes perspectives until it finds the one that explains everything in the simplest terms. But sometimes instead of simplest, Ni looks for the "easiest to deal with" perspective, and then settles on that. As a perspective, it automatically admits certain kinds of information and excludes others. There is a huge amount of cognitive bias in this case that is difficult to unravel, because Ni (in this negative case) will tend to not consider the possibility that unpleasant truths might be true.

In Si mechanism is surprisingly more stark, in my experience. Si types tend to rewrite their memories. If something "should be true", then it is, never mind that it is completely 100% false. This can be quite formidable to deal with, because Si types have such wonderful memory for detail, they can tell elaborate stories and all the facts check out, except for the one or two important ones that can't be verified, and those two are completely different from, for example, your own memories of the same events. But because the Si type has all those other details, they sound a LOT more credible. Another problem here is that when an Si type does this, the memory is often literally rewritten. The possibility that they misremembered it is never considered: after all their memory is excellent. So the Si type truly believes the false memory, and hence believes the lies they make to themselves.

Those are the only mechanisms I've taken time to outline. I'm sure there are plenty of others, and that's what I'd like to explore. I'm sure there are an entire set of "lying to yourself" patterns encased in Enneagram types. I also suspect there might be addition patterns of lying to oneself based on Ti and Fi. My current hypothesis is that the extroverted functions (Te/Fe/Ne/Se) aren't involved in this, as lying to oneself is an entirely subjective process - to the point that actually having to deal with extroverted factors could foil the lie.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Oh, and a word to the wise: I don't want this in any way to turn into a bashing session of various types. I'm looking for introspection, here, not accusations or rants.

Thanks!

 

[five sounds]

This is interesting. I was just talking about this phenomenon last night, and am dealing with a woman at work who is definitely understanding things in terms of confirming some kind of fear or insecurity she has. I have gone back and forth about her type. Maybe ESTJ? Maybe ESFJ? At any rate, as an outside observer it can be fascinating to watch people tell lies to themselves and believe it against all else. It's even more interesting to think about the fact that I'm sure I do the same at times and that I'm really probably the only one who can't see reality in that moment as clearly as everyone else can.

 

[Frosty]

I lie to myself by looking for alternate interpretations to explain away or justify something that probably shouldn't be. Over consider the extraneous and probably take comfort in it.

9 specifically, I sometimes seem to refuse to acknowledge the severity and impact problems have on my life, and how I am contributing to them. I ignore them and bury them and try to convice myself that they will take care of themselves, but I believe that I always have a certain level of awareness that I am doing this- don't always fully believe my lies, but I have a hard time acknowledging so to an extent that goes against my core fears.

 

[indra]

thread be lulzy

 

[prplchknz]

i can lie to myself as long as i truly believe the lie, but once i realize its a lie i feel terrible.

 

[gromit]

My lies to myself I would say have been more to do with beliefs, like false beliefs about myself, than facts or memories about the past per se, so I don't know how that would fit in.

 

[Qlip]

I have a pretty heavy commitment to the truth. I grew up with people lying to me because they lied to themselves. I always get the impression that ENFPs have a tendency not to lie to themselves, but could have a lack of understanding about things and no interest in finding out otherwise. More of a willful ignorance.

 

[Fidelia]

What does intj lying to oneself look like in relation to infj lying to oneself @umlauu?

 

[á´…eparted]

Your description of Ni involved with this seems on point, an mostly fits with myself (and what I've observed in other Ni-dom and Ni-aux individuals). Essentially, Ni can be misused to rationalize anything. Since it can operate independently at times, it's able to create axioms for itself. Basic truths that don't need to be questioned. This can serve things well, but can be very bad if Ni doesn't take the time to make sure the axiom is sound. When scared, that process gets rushed, or it can just outright fabricate things.

Ni also wants to forcast things out very far, and tends to look to the future to bolster itself. In cases where there is a fear response and it wants to protect itself, it will see the end goal (where there is no more fear or pain) and will come up with a system to get there by any means necessarry. Since it deems the goal to be most important, the current fears get overlooked and rushed, and it will create reasons to why they don't matter.

My mother (INFJ 9w8) does this a lot, and it's created an absolutely terrible mess for her. Many things scare her, and she'll lock onto the future as posessing the ideal, all that needs to be done is develop a plan to get there. Reality is scary, so let's ignore that and focus on what can be done, but let's get there fast and easily. 1, 2, skip a few, 99, 100, it's fullproof! Things compound, other things break, new things need to be bridged to make it, and you very quickly have a gourdian knot on your hands.

 

[Kas]

Getting to the truth is important to me, often more important than being right. Still I've noticed defence mechanisms connected with lying to myself, most I use:

1) idealization- when I'm fascinated by the idea or the person I tend to see only good traits and ignore faults;
2) fantasy- I tend to be avoidant when I have problem, get lost into dreams and simply forget about it
3) rationalization- sometimes I pretend that the aim isn't that important when I'm not sure if I can suceed- to avoid disappointment; when something bad is happening (especially if it's my fault) I tend to present it in the way that makes it at least a little beneficial
4) intelectualizaton- as removing myself emotionally from a stressful event, especially when something really bad is happening

If you want to link types with some strategies I think that 1,2 may be connected with the fact I'm INFP and 3,4- with 5 ennegram influence (?) or overdeveloped Ti(?)

Oh, I've just told so many bad things about myself...



Something I've noticed about my INTJ father and ENTJ sister is denyal when somebody close to them (as me) is disagreeing with them. They tend to continue as I didn't say anything.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

The Ni mechanism: Ni will elide the truth. Ni is always looking at things from different perspectives. Usually, this is an Occam's Razor approach: the simplest explanation is usually the best, so Ni changes perspectives until it finds the one that explains everything in the simplest terms. But sometimes instead of simplest, Ni looks for the "easiest to deal with" perspective, and then settles on that. As a perspective, it automatically admits certain kinds of information and excludes others. There is a huge amount of cognitive bias in this case that is difficult to unravel, because Ni (in this negative case) will tend to not consider the possibility that unpleasant truths might be true.

Regarding the passage I bolded: JCF is *all* about cognitive bias. In fact, that might be the definition of a JCF: A cognitive bias of one sort or another.

To put it another way: Most of your description could be applied to Fi as well: A way of thinking that looks for and finds a self-serving perspective, one that's "easiest to deal with" and that ignores competing facts.

I think the more interesting question is how Ni looks from the outside: that is, how Ni manifests itself to others (how it appears to non-Ni-users) who aren't under its sway. IOW, most Ni-Doms think they're getting away with something. But they're usually not; they're usually spotted for the control freaks that they are. So what is the exact nature of that control freakism? That's where Ni-Dom distinguishes itself.

In Si mechanism is surprisingly more stark, in my experience. Si types tend to rewrite their memories. If something "should be true", then it is, never mind that it is completely 100% false. This can be quite formidable to deal with, because Si types have such wonderful memory for detail, they can tell elaborate stories and all the facts check out, except for the one or two important ones that can't be verified, and those two are completely different from, for example, your own memories of the same events. But because the Si type has all those other details, they sound a LOT more credible. Another problem here is that when an Si type does this, the memory is often literally rewritten. The possibility that they misremembered it is never considered: after all their memory is excellent. So the Si type truly believes the false memory, and hence believes the lies they make to themselves.

In this latter example, I think you're talking more about the action of the *Inferior* function. You said that your description maps to ESTJs (Si-Auxes). But when ESTJs spin the truth, I think it's usually due to Fi Inferior: A feeling that something is due them, and it's okay to tell a white lie in order to serve a larger truth (an Fi value).

Or if you're looking at it as an example of pure Si-Dom (as in the example of an ISTJ), then you may be looking at Ne-Inferior here. Ne is about flexiness and thinking outside the box. Push an Si-Dom into a corner or catch them "in the grip," and you'll see some rapacious, merciless twisting of the truth and mind-fuckery. (I was married to an ISTJ for 10 years.)

In any case, I don't think you're capturing the essence of Si in the quote above. It sounds more like you're looking at how an Si-user uses their Inferior function, whichever function that might be.

Which raises the question: When you ask about the various types "lying to themselves," do you mean lying when they're just using their Dom function normally (as in the example of Ni users) or lying when they're under pressure or "in the grip" of their Inferior function (which your Si example seems to reflect)?

 

[Tennessee Jed]

Having criticized [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]'s post, let me now follow up and spell out the cognitive biases and petty rip-offs that I personally see for Ni and Si (and Fi):

Ni = control freakism. When faced with a demand or interaction, Ni tries to drag its feet or to pre-dispose the situation in order to gain advantage. Not out of any meanness of character, per se, but more from a desire for economy and productivity.

Taking Highlander (INTJ, Ni Dom) as an example. When Highlander was pushed about his treatment of Nicodemus at the beginning of the Nicodemus thread, he made a couple official-sounding posts. Then his posts got shorter and shorter, and he increasingly pushed the burden of proof back on the questioner. For example, this very typical INTJ-like post:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/the-fluff-zone/77738-nicos-goodbye-post-5.html#post2487236

It's just INTJ foot-dragging. Later by the end of the thread (20-some pages later), Highlander is finally and begrudgingly explaining things at greater length. But in the end, he largely just echoes opinions already expressed by others.

I'm not saying it's a bad strategy. I've used it myself. Drag your feet, get other to reveal their cards first, see which way the wind is blowing, then cherry-pick the best arguments from the discussion to buttress your own side. It's a way of debating with minimal effort, because really it's just mop-up anyway. The thing was already a fait accompli.

Okay, now here are a couple INFJ examples for comparison (IOW, also Ni-Dom):

My INFJ boss at my workplace liked to maintain the fiction that he encouraged discussion of new policies. But in fact, he rigged the discussions in such a way that his view would win out. That is, he prepared his arguments ahead of time, on his own. Then he called a meeting but didn't tell anyone what the agenda would be. Then he asked for suggestions for a new policy. People were unprepared, and he was easily able to push through whatever policy he had already pre-determined. But afterwards he could use the meeting to make the claim that the new policy was the product of a group discussion and everyone signed off on it (and thus was equally responsible for it).

Another trick of his: When he wanted to promote someone to fill an important slot at work, he would promote *two* people to that slot and have them rotate in that position, six months each. Like they were taking turns interning for that slot. Sometimes he would have the same two people alternating in the same slot for years. He said it was so he could see who was best and cross-train two people at the same time. But it also served his purposes to have two subordinates at each other's throats and kissing his butt for that slot while he dilly-dallied on making his decision.

Another example of INFJ control-freakism from personality websites: INFJs are known for writing up long manuals on how people should treat them. Nothing about how they would or should treat others. Just manuals on how others should treat *them.* It's control-freakism in the sense that they somehow think they can just manage a relationship by handing someone a manual and saying to them, "Don't bother speaking for yourself. Everything you need to say is right here."

And so on. Gotta love Ni-Dom.

Si-Dom:

It aspires to automate things. Automation = increased productivity. If you can develop a time slot and simple rules for repetitive tasks, then you don't have to fuss about them any more; you can move onto other things. For example: Sex every Sunday afternoon lasting 45 minutes with X amount of foreplay and using Y position. Make a system of it, and then just plug it into the weekly schedule. Si is a function for noting details, making comparisons, figuring out the optimal way of doing things, and turning them into rules and systems.

Si is good for categorizing, storing, and fast-tracking some things while putting other things on hold. IOW, think of yourself like a secretary sorting paperwork and putting it in different boxes according to importance.

Si-Dom works in a purely personal, internal lab. Its products are the result of hard data-crunching, but sometimes they are simply wrong. The Si-Dom either forgets to test them in the real world or protects them from the real world, considering such truths to be a personal form of magic and not understandable by the masses.

But I don't think that really falls under "rewriting the truth" per se. It's just that Si Doms have an "Occam's Razor" of their own: Automate things, and they become easier to handle. The trouble is, sometimes things don't automate easily and nicely. So "Occam's Razor" becomes a Procrustean Bed where the Si-user trims off any parts that don't fit neatly into the bed.

But the same can be said for any JCF.

Fi does much the same thing. The Fi-Dom ponders values until he/she believes he/she is an expert in them. But their internal construct for a value such as "love" or "empathy" can be full of holes or cheap sentimentality; and it can also be a case of "Occam's Razor" where certain inconvenient truths are disregarded because they don't fit neatly with preconceived notions. Again, I don't think it's "rewriting the truth" per se. It's just cognitive bias, same as with every other function.

For example, one Fi-Dom might say that love should be spontaneous and automatic; two healthy people in love should be able to read each other's minds and know exactly what's best for each other. However, a psychologist would say that that's an example of poor boundaries and not really a good basis for a relationship. But most Fi-Doms have real trouble discarding sentimental concepts about love. Even more than Idealists, Fi-Doms tend to be Sentimentalists.

Oh well, enough for now. I'm just making a few points about how I see these functions working. I see them as roughly one and the same: a cognitive bias, self-serving, a form of Occam's Razor, with a bit of "rewriting the truth" tossed in for good measure.

Where they differ is in the nature of how they express themselves: Control-freakism, automation, cheap sentimentality, etc. They're sort of like light versions of personality disorders. If allowed to fester, they can become true personality disorders. But with time and maturity hopefully each individual JCF-user eventually spots his/her particular flavor of cognitive bias and learns to take a more adult and balanced approach instead of just assuming they're getting away with their petty rip-offs.

(Please ignore the typos; I'm moving quickly here.)

 

[Tennessee Jed]

I was thinking about this some more and decided to expand a bit on what I said above.

I think the negatives of a given function = those ways in which we tune out others as a byproduct of taking shortcuts or favoring processes in the natural use of those functions. And that's without taking into account Inferior processes and stressed-out situations.

Using the examples of Ni-Dom that I gave:

Highlander (INTJ) knows that being responsive to one's clientele is part of the running of any modern business. So in the Nicodemus thread he at first tried to solve the problem with polite policy pronouncements. But when those didn't do the trick, it was just natural and easy to do the standard INTJ thing and engage in some politely obtuse foot-dragging and let people weary themselves out a bit banging their heads against that brick wall.

Similarly, my boss (INFJ) knew that agendas should be sent out before meetings. People would complain about the lack of forewarning or agendas before the weekly meetings; my boss even got docked on it on a supervisor review. After the supervisory review and the negative feedback on agendas, he sent out agendas for the next two meetings, then stopped again. His job was just so much easier without those agendas. Without those agendas, he could ambush people and control the flow of information and ideas at the meeting.

Similarly, INFJs on typology message boards know full well that they have a reputation for being cool, aloof, standoffish, and quick to bolt (doorslams). They know that they get satirized and laughed at for writing manuals on how other types should handle INFJs. Still they have an obsessive need to limit other people's access to them, resulting in lots of verbiage about how they keep people at tiers and levels of emotional distance in their relationships and what's required before they will trust or even hear what others have to say.

I sum that all up under the label of "control freakism" in the sense of limiting or manipulating the flow of information to gain advantage. It's a common factor in how Ni-Doms like dealing with people. They look for ways to optimize their handling of people and things. Tweaking the flow of information and regulating people's access to them is a convenient tool for Ni-Doms in dealing with the world; but on the negative side it can turn into a way of tuning people out and manipulating them.

Si-Dom:

When I first started dating my ISTJ ex-wife (Si-Dom), her car broke down one day. She called AAA and had it towed to my place so that I could fix it. When she stopped by and told me that the car was sitting in my driveway, I was flabbergasted. I said, "I'm a humanities major in college. What the hell do I know about cars? Why didn't you have the tow guys bring it to a garage? Why did you even think I could fix your car?"

Her answer: All the guys that she knew back home worked on cars. I was a guy. Therefore...

It's a silly anecdote, but it kind of gets at how Si-Doms work. They look for simple rules and system for automating everything. At times it can turn into stereotyping people. Even after we had been married for years, my ex would sometimes say something about me that was so outrageous, I would turn to her and say, "Do you even know who I am?" One time she explained to a mutual friend that I acted a certain way because I was an only child growing up. I turned to her and said, "Are you kidding? I have six siblings. You've met them all. Why are you saying I'm an only child?" Her response was to laugh and say, "Yes, of course I know that. But you *act* like someone who grew up as an only child. So in my mind I think of you as one."

This became a minor but constant irritant in our marriage. Over and over, I had to ask, "Do you even know who I am?" She had me shoehorned into this or that category or stereotype. And even when the category fit me, I still didn't necessarily feel heard or understood. She wasn't really tuning me in and "hearing" me; she was just pigeonholing me and then acting on her understanding of how that pigeonhole should work.

It became a bigger problem when our life circumstances changed and we needed to work out some new rules and roles for our marriage. As an Si-Dom, she had me and her and our marriage all boxed in and categorized neatly in her head. For me to change our roles even a little was tantamount to asking for a divorce so that I could restructure our marriage into some other type of cohabiting relationship.

IOW, as a long-time married couple we were heading into middle age, things were getting more complex, we needed a more mature, fluid understanding of how we related; but all that goes contrary to Si-Dom. My ex fought any change to the point where she would go to her Inferior function (Ne-Inf), and that's when things REALLY got crazy.

This is the standard complaint about Si-Doms: They want things to be simple and automatic. They like to pigeonhole and stereotype. When it works, it works very well. It's why Si-Doms make good cops and military people and function well in high-pressure environments where things have to be done by the numbers. But it can also backfire on them, such as when cops and soldiers stereotype people into pigeonholes like "perp" or "enemy" on the basis of appearance or class or other external factors and simply refuse to consider a more contextual way of handling people.

So one might say that Si-Doms have a gift for pigeonholing and automating. It can be a tremendous time-saver and productivity tool when it works well. But it can hinder communication when Si-Doms engage in stereotyping and use it in place of "hearing" people and taking in shades of gray or paying attention to the larger picture.

I'll stop there. I won't even bother getting into Fi-Doms and offer anecdotes about how how sensitivity to feelings and values of Fi-Doms can turn into shallow sentimentality, and how Fi-Doms can use shaming tactics and outrage (another form of cheap sentimentality) as a way of dismissing competing points of view. There are so many INFPs here at TypoC that I think our shortcomings are well-known. (I say "our" because I'm an INFP.)

Anyway, I'm just giving examples of how the strengths of each type can also be negatives, without having to go into the Inferior functions. Over-reliance on one mode of handling people can be productive and a "force for good"; but it can also become a crutch and turn into a way of tuning out inconvenient or unwanted info.

 

[Hawthorne]

Initially misread as "How do you lie?" like a request for a step-by-step guide on getting people to agree with (or not challenge) one's bullshit. I got a little excited.

Lying to myself, I almost always downplay the impact. "It's in the past.", "No point in getting worked up about that.", and stuff like that. It works great for keeping your focus forward and preventing residual regret for mistakes. Becomes less effective when you use it to rationalize away current problems or suppress your emotional needs.

I couldn't possibly link this defense mechanism to typology if I tried. Anyone else want to give it a shot?

 

[Mane]

With Ne it... kind of gets shady. Inspiring self honesty in this thread (Ironic in a good way), so I will give it a shot. There is lying and then there is lying and then there is lying and there is lying and there is even lying and they are totally different things who just happen to have in common not being the truth and they all have different intertwined mixtures of lying to yourself and to others. The most basic lie is...


"This makes sense"
Ne dom: "Ok, this makes sense in my head, I get it now"
voice of reason: "Are you sure you don't want to fact-check this before building on top of it?"
Ne dom: "What? Why? Did something about it not make sense?"
Functionally, this is a lot like what [MENTION=22236]YUI[/MENTION] describes with Si - it's not quite keeping your lab inside, it's that real life is the experiment. For the most part, this is because Ne doms experience reality as a gamble no matter what, you are always shooting in the dark and hoping that there's ground beneath your next step, so what's the harm in telling someone else that there's ground there too? Well, quite a bit actually, because then they fall and it's our fault. This brings me to the next lie:

"It's going to be true eventually"
somehow, in the minds of a lot of Ne doms, the potential you see and what is already there can have a pretty fuzzy line. You lie to others - and to yourself - because by the time it's going to matter your going to make it true, unless something doesn't go your way or you end up doing something different, which you will almost certainly will. In the mean time the pretense is ok because you know "it's just temporary", which is the part of the lie we tend to tell ourselves.

"You can't catch me nana nanana na"
We have no clue if it's wrong or not, but it could be true, do you know it can't be true? Neither do we. We are playing around and entertaining the possibility that it is, we don't have conviction either way but god damn it we forgot if we were serious or playing devil advocate half way... Who can keep tabs about these things anyway? So, continuing to explore and sometimes even act and give suggestions based on the possibility and float on the wings of 'maybe' as far as god damn can before hitting the ground.

"Prove me wrong!"
And I do not put the devil emote to mean intentional lying, quite the opposite, it's kind of a lie in all directions. This is Ne tempered with unadulterated rage - You will see it in ENFP crusades and ENTP inquisitions. This is the potential I see around the edges, these are the connections I am making, I hate it, I don't want to see it, I know you hate this too, I want this to be a god damn lie, I am going to stick this in your face and preach it as truth until you get your act together and help me to prove this shit wrong, Fuck it, it doesn't matter if it was true, MAKE IT WRONG" (Because that's what I would do - a.k.a the "It's going to be true eventually" Ne kind of lie). We are lying to ourselves that what we see can't be true, we are lying to everyone else in expressing that this is true, and more importantly, we are lying to ourselves that this will work, because while all the other lies lack the conviction of Ni and Si doms, this one can triumph it, and coming from normally laid back you, nobody is going to get how desperate you are to find support for your own very doubts in the very thing you are saying.

 

[Evee]

 

[Kullervo]

"Because the truth isn't always good enough. Sometimes, people deserve something more."

A pleasant fiction can be very tempting, especially if it means you don't have to do something that requires effort - like taking an action, or challenging a thought/idea. The imagination can foster laziness.

I am generally of the view (contra the above) that unhappy truths trump appealing delusions, because poorly rationalised beliefs are rarely harmless. They cause a great deal of harm in the world, every day. Accepting reality is part of growing up. This is not today that reality is immalleable - only that we must recognise human nature and the limits it creates.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

With Ne it... kind of gets shady. Inspiring self honesty in this thread (Ironic in a good way), so I will give it a shot. There is lying and then there is lying and then there is lying and there is lying and there is even lying and they are totally different things who just happen to have in common not being the truth and they all have different intertwined mixtures of lying to yourself and to others. The most basic lie is...[snipped]

Excellent post. Since Ne operates out in the open, it's pretty much known territory. But I like how you spelled out the kinds of inner rationalizations that ENTPs use to justify their thinking. Nice!

Initially misread as "How do you lie?" like a request for a step-by-step guide on getting people to agree with (or not challenge) one's bullshit. I got a little excited.

Lying to myself, I almost always downplay the impact. "It's in the past.", "No point in getting worked up about that.", and stuff like that. It works great for keeping your focus forward and preventing residual regret for mistakes. Becomes less effective when you use it to rationalize away current problems or suppress your emotional needs.

I couldn't possibly link this defense mechanism to typology if I tried. Anyone else want to give it a shot?

Just for an overview:

The main feature of Ne-Dom (ENTPS and ENFPs) is to brainstorm, be flexy, and generate options.
--Ne is a perceiving function and is about cogitating/churning possibilities. Ne is outward-focused and looks at things on an ad-hoc basis. That makes it kind of knee-jerk; it sees a situation and wants to provide quick solutions or tools and then move on.
--Ne is about going with your gut. It's about beating the odds, testing for chinks in the armor, one-upping and beating out the rest, it's about being the contrarian and assuming that all the rest are deluded sheep. Ne is the type for engineers. It juxtaposes disparate things in the hopes of teasing out new solutions for old problems. As such, it's forward-looking and strategic.
--At its best, Ne is about using juxtapositions for creativity, such as deriving new tools and solutions for problems; brainstorming; gaming the system to figure out how to change it or duck it.

As Mane's excellent post shows, the gray areas and the unknowns of any issue are great places for exploration. And it's not that the Ne-Dom wishes to deceive. It's more a question of indulging a creative streak with a challenge to the audience: "Prove me wrong!"

Of course, it can go awry when taken to the extreme.

--When Ne is used immaturely or irresponsibly, then Ne can be about manipulation via head games, testing of people, one-upmanship.
--Also, Ne-Doms have Si as their inferior. As a result, they can have a phobia about routine, repetition, and detail. If they're not careful, they can end up careening from one new adventure to the next in a chase for novelty. Landing in one mess after another, they may end up trying to bullshit their way through life. It can result in flakiness, gullibility and lack of focus--not a good combo for recognizing and sticking to the truth.

For the rest of this post, I'll just quote from a popular typology website.

Regarding ENTPs specifically:

ENTP strengths:
--The ability to hold many points of view in mind and see their differing merits.
--Seeing ways to do things others have not thought of.
--Able to give quick and diverse answers to any question of interest.
--Seeing the other side of a situation and making it known.
--Being able to juggle many differing jobs or processes at the one time.
--Easily capable of holding your own in any argument or discussion.
--The ability to quickly find the best or most useful side of others.
--Seeing the many connections between events and things which are not immediately obvious to others.

ENTP gifts:
--The ability to solve puzzles and problems that have no obvious way to resolution.
--The ability to define schematically a new structure or design and know it will work.
--Knowing and giving to others the very thing they need when they are not sure themselves.
--A talent for innovative creation in writing, music or the visual arts.
--The gift of knowing which new ideas or changes will enhance rather than detract from their relationships with others

ENTP problem areas:
--The inability to maintain a comfortable situation or relationship once its possibilities have been realized or exhausted.
--A tendency to consider careful or meticulous thinkers as unworthy plodders or time wasters.
--Blindness to the needs and feelings of others not directly involved in the ENTP's current area of interest.
--A lack of sensitivity to the feelings and ways of those who might need reassurance, security or commitment.
--The inability to deal carefully and calmly with the finer details of a situation or work in progress.
--Tendency to become overly annoyed by minor setbacks or small things that have to be set right before the goal can be realized.
--A tendency to be arrogant or boastful, or to demean those who cannot see the same answers.
--Can often find themselves in bad situations by too quickly taking a big step forward or by being "too smart for their own good".

Link: Portrait of an ENTP

Regarding ENFPs specifically:

ENFP strengths:
--They're exceptionally perceptive about people and situations. The're often able to quickly and accurately assess where someone is coming from.
--They accept and value people as individuals, and are strongly egalitarian. They believe that individuals have the right to be themselves, and are very tolerant and accepting of most people.
--They're often deep and intelligent, and may be quite brilliant in their ability to tie things together. They're wired to look for connections int the external world, and so may mentally put things together more easily than many.
--Their interest in understanding the world usually makes them in tune with what's socially acceoptable and what isn't. This may help them to be popular and likable.
--They're highly creative. This ability may be used in an artistic way, or way to be used to generate ideas and new ways of thinking.

ENFP gifts:
--They will have the ability to follow through on projects they've begun.
--They will be less gullible and malleable, and generally more able to discern between "good" and "bad", rather than accepting everything without question.
--They may be highly artistic.
--They will have the ability to focus and concentrate deeply on tasks. This enhanced ability to think and process information internally will make them more capable on many levels.
--They will balance out their desire to meet new people and have new experiences with the desire to put their understand to use in some way.
--They will find more meaning and purpose in their lives.

ENFP problem areas:
--May be what many would call a "sucker" - vulnerable to schemers and con artists.
--May get themselves into dangerous situations because they are too eager to push the envelope of their understanding, and not willing to apply judgment to anything.
--May feel intense anger towards people who criticise them or try to control them, but will be unable to express the anger. Left unexpressed, the anger may fester, simmer, and become destructive.
--May blame their problems on other people, using logic and ration to defend themselves against the world.
--May develop strong negative judgments that are difficut to unseat against people who they perceive have been oppressive to them.
--May get involved with drugs, alcohol, or promiscuity, and generally seek mindless experiences and sensations.
--May skip from relationship to relationship without the ability to commit.
--May start projects but be unable to finish them.
--May be unable to keep a job for any length of time.

Link: ENFP Personal Growth

 

[uumlau]

Guys ...

While these last 8 posts are so aren't exactly off topic, they really aren't ON topic, either. They are a bunch of complaints about things you don't like about certain types, how stupid certain types are, how unreasonable certain types are. This is getting perilously close to the "bashing of other types" that I said I didn't want to be part of the discussion.

Lying to yourself is way, way, way more subtle than what you've been talking about, here. It isn't just being wrong about something. It isn't being stupid about something. It isn't being unreasonable about something.

The lies I'm talking about sound very, very reasonable, both to oneself and to others. They aren't "You're a guy, and guys can fix cars, therefore you can fix my car."

YOU might manage to detect a close friend's lies to himself or herself, MAYBE. Your friend won't be able to detect their own lies to themselves, because everyone is an expert at lying to oneself. They're lies such as saying you aren't really angry about something, or that everything will work out fine and ignoring problems because that maintains an illusion of control.

The Enneagram types are built around the kinds of lies people tell themselves: type 4s imagine if they find that one true love, everything will work out; type 5s imagine that if they master a topic, that they have control; type 7s imagine that the grass is greener over there ... and so on.

I'm partly interested in the Jungian function versions of these various lies, because I think it matters not just what the lie is (Enneagram type) it also matters how we lie to ourselves (and others) so very convincingly.

What does intj lying to oneself look like in relation to infj lying to oneself @umlauu?

I think that substantially they work the same way, but superficially they're different. An INFJ might say that they're avoiding a topic in order to not make someone else uncomfortable, when the real reason is that it makes the INFJ uncomfortable. An INTJ might instead say that a particular choice they're forced by circumstance to take is really a choice they made willingly. The similarity is that both versions of the truth in these examples are true "from a particular point of view" as Obi Wan might say.

The INFJ is genuinely concerned about making others feel uncomfortable, and the INTJ is very practical and will happily work with circumstances not of their own making ... if these things weren't true, the lies wouldn't work. The lies provide truths that act to conceal other truths. These Ni versions lies to oneself WORK because the incomplete truth is still true, so it ends up sounding reasonable to oneself and everyone else precisely because it is true, and thus prevents further self-reflection that might reveal the other truth.

 

[Poki]

I suck at lieing to myself. I know when I make shit up. I am really good at lieing to others though. I avoid as much as possible though as I hate lieing. Sometimes it's a necessary evil. I still will try to avoid as much as possible.

The people who have the biggest issues lieing to themselves are the ones who tend to live in denial.