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  1. #81
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I think you would like me to justify MBTI a priori.

    My father liked to argue like that and had a very old book called, "First Principles".

    And for him empirical evidence fell outside his argument.

    You couldn't quote history at him because he would always argue a priori from first principles.

    A priori gives a certain seductive certainty.

    And it was this certainty that fed his vanity.

    And whatever you feed, grows.
    Dude what are you talking about? You're doing exactly what your father was doing. You're so vain that you aren't questioning your own beliefs -- "And it was this certainty that fed his vanity. And whatever you feed, grows."

    A priori or a posteriori, who cares? I'd just like to hear you justify your dismissal of MBTI in any sense at all.

    You keep dodging the question.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    I'd just like to hear you justify your dismissal of MBTI in any sense at all.

    You keep dodging the question.
    I reject MBTI on two grounds.

    1. Any qualified psychometrician will tell you that MBTI is invalid and unreliable.

    2. The person responsible for MBTI freely chose those who came very close to absolute evil.

  3. #83
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I reject MBTI on two grounds.

    1. Any qualified psychometrician will tell you that MBTI is invalid and unreliable.

    2. The person responsible for MBTI freely chose those who came very close to absolute evil.
    As much as I'm enjoying this, really, I have to point out that

    #1 - Appeal to Authority
    #2 - I have no idea what you are talking about, but know that it has nothing to do with the theory (neither Jung, or MB, nor CAPT)

    First up, MBTI has been validated, within itself, as a testing instrument. It had loads of research behind it. You need tangible reasons on why it isn't valid.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    As much as I'm enjoying this, really, I have to point out that

    #1 - Appeal to Authority
    #2 - I have no idea what you are talking about, but know that it has nothing to do with the theory (neither Jung, or MB, nor CAPT)

    First up, MBTI has been validated, within itself, as a testing instrument. It had loads of research behind it. You need tangible reasons on why it isn't valid.
    How extraordinary!

    All you have to do it pick up your telephone and ring the Psychology Department of your local University and ask to speak to a qualified psychometrician and simply ask them.

    But you won't do this - you prefer the policy of don't ask, don't know.

    And it is a matter of public record that Jung freely chose to be a NAZI collaborator.

    It is plain MBTI is wrong and immoral. So the only interesting question is why is there a global cult of MBTI?

    And the answer partly lies in history. As MBTI is part of the very wide spread and profitable New Age cult.

    And an even more interesting question is, why are there so many lost people, so many spiritually homeless people, so attracted to a narcissistic cult?

  5. #85
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I usually just refer to this state as one of "bittersweetness" -- because I feel both at once, and since I define it as "one emotion," I have no need to toss either or both out. It hurts good and pleasures bad.
    This statement could be considered irrational but it is very close to the essence of acceptance that sometimes things appear contradictory while still appearing to be true! A sort of fourth dimension of feeling.

    "Bittersweet" is a perfect word for some feeling states I experience. Neither poles but a blend of apparent opposites - sweet and sour.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #86
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    All you have to do it pick up your telephone and ring the Psychology Department of your local University and ask to speak to a qualified psychometrician and simply ask them.
    MBTI is covered in many university courses now, FYI. They also administer the test in many cases.

    But you won't do this - you prefer the policy of don't ask, don't know.
    I suspect that I know... uhhh... policies? a bit better than you think.

    And it is a matter of public record that Jung freely chose to be a NAZI collaborator.
    Not relevant to the point at hand.

    It is plain MBTI is wrong and immoral. So the only interesting question is why is there a global cult of MBTI?
    By association, or is there a reason?

    And the answer partly lies in history. As MBTI is part of the very wide spread and profitable New Age cult.
    Unsubstantiated inference.

    And an even more interesting question is, why are there so many lost people, so many spiritually homeless people, so attracted to a narcissistic cult?
    Begging the question.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    MBTI is covered in many university courses now, FYI. They also administer the test in many cases.
    You don't seem to be taking this matter seriously.

    I know of no Psychology Department in any accredited University that says that MBTI is Valid and Reliable.

    If you know of any such University, please give me their name and address, email and phone number, and I will personally contact them and report back to MBTI Central.

    It does seem to me that the narcissistic expression of opinion is seen as equivalent to the ascertainable facts.

    And narcissism seems inseparable from shallowness and boredom.

  8. #88
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    So instead of thinking for yourself, you blindly trust "psychmetricians", whoever they are? That doesn't seem contrary to your entire philosophy to you?

    You advocate blindly following some, and you tell us that our thinking for ourselves is invalid?

    Huh?

    This is the extreme case of cognitive dissonance. You would rather believe these people because it's easier than thinking for yourself. You've backed this view so much, and each time you do, it makes you less likely to see what you're actually doing.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    This statement could be considered irrational but it is very close to the essence of acceptance that sometimes things appear contradictory while still appearing to be true! A sort of fourth dimension of feeling.

    "Bittersweet" is a perfect word for some feeling states I experience. Neither poles but a blend of apparent opposites - sweet and sour.
    Unfortunately this is the easy way out.

    In a contradiction, both statements can be false, or one or the other true and the other false, but both statements cannot be true at the same time.

    So you are taking a metaphor which implies or says that both parts of a contradiction can be true at the same time.

    This is the kind of pseudo thinking that makes Romanticism, the New Age and MBTI possible.

    Of course the advantage of pseudo thinking is that it makes you feel good and it facilitates the conning of others - while it manages to avoid the empirical facts.

    And what is amazing is that pseudo thinking is presented with a straight face.

    But I guess when you can fake sincerity, you've got is made.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    So instead of thinking for yourself, you blindly trust "psychmetricians", whoever they are? That doesn't seem contrary to your entire philosophy to you?

    You advocate blindly following some, and you tell us that our thinking for ourselves is invalid?

    Huh?

    This is the extreme case of cognitive dissonance. You would rather believe these people because it's easier than thinking for yourself. You've backed this view so much, and each time you do, it makes you less likely to see what you're actually doing.
    My dear Dissonance,

    This is silly.

    I trust qualified Psychometricians in the same way I trust qualified Astronomers.

    I am not a qualifed Psychometrician nor a qualified Astronomer, but when every Astronomer tells me that astrology has no truth value, I read their article to see if I am persuaded by their empirical evidence and logic.

    And when every qualified Psychometrican tells me that MBTI is neither Valid nor Reliable, I read their articles to see if I am persuaded by their empirical evidence and logic.

    I certainly do not rely on the cult of astrology to tell me whether it is true, any more than I rely on the cult of MBTI to tell me it is true.

    I seek corroborative evidence - and there is none.

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