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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Yup.

    Actually I'd like to hear you say more about "a coping mechanism for avoiding cognitive disonance."

    Do you think it's possible to avoid?
    Do you see ways that my method for the good guy/bad guy thing could be applied to other examples?
    For heavens sake, don't avoid cognitive dissonance, seek it out.

    For instance, you can experience the cognitive dissonance between your imagination and reality.

    You could join Ilah and myself as we walk along the street imagining we are dancing and flying.

    This will be disconcerting at first. And you may feel some initial fear. And it is important to keep yourself safe, particularly crossing the road.

    And once you discover the delights of cognitive dissonance, you can even apply it here, like Jennifer, who can almost hear me padding after her on silent paws.

    And then you will be tempted to apply it to the intellectual life. You will pass through a moment of fear into the sunny uplands of cognitive dissonance; and who knows what you may discover.

    Captain James Cook took his cognitive dissonance into the unknown and discovered Australia - just as you are doing now.

    Join James, Victor, Ilah and Jennifer in the dance of cognitive dissonance. We might even make up a little song about cognitive dissonance.

    I can hear it in the distance now.

  2. #52
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    Default The Statue of Liberty and the Vice-President

    On one hand we have the most prominent symbol of the Enlightenment called the Statue of Liberty.

    On the other hand we have a putative Vice-President who wants to teach Creationism in biology class.

    This is an example of cognitive dissonance.

    And because cognitive dissonance is mentally painful, we try to remove the contradiction - we try to remove one side or the other of the cognitive dissonance.

    This means either removing the Statue of Liberty or the Vice-President. Fortunately neither is possible - so we are stuck with our cognitive dissonance.

    And this is a blessing in disguise - for cognitive dissonance means we are learning something new - but what is it?

  3. #53
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If it was painful, you must have felt like you had good reason to make that modification in order for you to proceed.
    It's all really about relative pain. Which is the more painful of the two competing options. When Cognitive Dissonance is a problem the relative pain of the two options is in balance. Resolving Cognitive Dissonance is a powerful way to influence a person. There are many strategies to influence people. A good one that worked on me recently was to show how and why another people resolved their own Cognitive Dissonance when faced with a similar internal conflict to that of my own.

  4. #54
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    The purpose of cognitive dissonance is to baffle the logical part of the mind. And being baffled, it turns off or crashes, leaving the way open for the creative mind to come out to play.

    The logical part can't handle two contradictory statements at the same time so it turns off. This is the opportunity for revelation and discovery to occur.

    Your computer will crash when there is a logical contradiction, but your computer has no creative back up.

    But like you computer, your logical mind will turn back on by itself - but you have tucked away in your rucksack your latest revelation.

    We find of course, revelation in the Bible. But revelation is only as far from us as our next cognitive dissonance.

  5. #55
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So what is it in people (what psychological constructs exist) that drives these resolutions of cognitive dissonace?

    What is feared here? What is trying to be avoided by the convolutions of thought?

    Why is it hard to allow one's worldview to shift... or to embrace ambiguity?
    I'm glad this is come up. If I weren't so intoxicated I'd likely post something a bit more substantial but we'll have to do with the tools currently available.

    Laziness is something I've struggled to beat out of people for years.
    I lash out against submission. This inevitably results in further attacks, as, they've either done what I tell them, and therefore submitted, or they haven't, in which case they've also submitted.

    That's mostly irrelevant. Just a funny thing I noticed.


    Anyway, I think it's it's about ease. Laziness. Most logicians are.
    Even as complicated as re-designing the walls might be -- digging and pouring a new foundation is infinitely harder.

    That requires actual observation. Indiscriminate observation is very difficult. Having a life philosophy helps keep us 'on track' specifically for maintaining the status quo.

    Keeping with the establishment is historically easier -- not only psychologically, not only socioeconomically. I suspect stability in these two arenas is from the same psychological mechanism
    Fear, and laziness.

    Because if the ground we stand on is not firm, how can we move ourselves to live the way we do? How can we justify showing up to that job every day?
    If survival isn't important, then the job isn't.

    It's hard to assume you're fundamentally wrong. People prefer their perception, to actual reality.

    It's probably got something to do with what I call the "Turtle factor."

    Turtles are slow because they're saving energy (of course...). People are slow witted and lazy with their thinking because they're saving energy, just in case a bear comes along and we need to run up a tree, or maybe someone starts a fire and we have to run out of the abode in a frenzy.

    I'm unsure as to specifically whether you were searching for a biological reason for why psychologic is nested this way or... what?

  6. #56
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Hey how about Cognitive Harmony?

    I usually think that I probably have the wrong idea about everything, but it just still always works out.

    Without getting into waves and acoustics, by analogy I suppose my perception is perhaps a fifth above tonic, and someone with cognitive dissonance tried to play a second when they meant to hit the third?
    Or maybe they did one of those dreadful tri-tones and now they're playing it off as deliberate. My ideas would just always make a power chord.

    I don't...
    I think I probably lost any potential audience...

  7. #57
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    (I like this thread topic. And having recently thought about it... an adapted diary post!)

    So what is it in people (what psychological constructs exist) that drives these resolutions of cognitive dissonace?
    (Rephrased questions: What psychological constructs cause cognitive dissonance? What is it in people that moves cognitive dissonance to resolution?)


    The constructs are best expressed as the interlinking "filters" that make up the structures used to process and bring meaning to our present. Filters, meaning the heuristics that we use to organize the data we gather... but in this case, heuristics includes thought/mind as a whole. Cognitive dissonance suddenly changes and destabilizes our filtering processes (ie: groupings, conceptual underpinnings, etc), which results in confusion, stress and anxiety. The mind attempts to return to equilibrium (ie: a functional state). We rebuild our structure (reframe), remove the influence (denial), or fragment our constructs (double standards).

    I say this in extremely general terms. Forms of dissonance come from this interplay, and range from childhood training, self-justification for actions and group identification. And an infinite more, probably.

    The resolution is simply the rewiring of our mind to accept (avoid) disharmony. To ask what is done is to ask how the mind wires itself. The best analogy is to use 'burn back' from negative feedback. When you get a "1+1=3" answer, it triggers negative feedback. This burns back to the origin - the groupings and the data not fitting properly in sets. The result is a rewiring of the group, or the rejection of the data (in reality, a new filter to *omit* that data from consideration).

    It isn't a unique thing - we experience it constantly. It's an important part of the mind... but we aren't often aware of it. Constructs can be extremely subtle. If you can afford something but chose not to get it, you soon find yourself believing that you never really wanted it (otherwise you would of gotten it!) If you could of hooked up with someone, but didn't, you didn't really want to. Coherency here is important, and it becomes more important the more you need to justify your actions. That is, the more you wanted something and the less you acted (without anything else to blame), the more you will rewire yourself. Using the same analogy, when you don't buy something, you get negative feedback along the "desire", rewiring it until you don't.

    The subtle effect also happens when we start dealing with self identity. From this board, there is huge dissonance between identifying self-worth (deep down!) with intelligence, and the universal approach of intelligence as a metric for a peron's value. The first step in burning back is the moral stance - rejecting IQ tests, or the ability to measure intelligence in any meaningful way. It would be much harder to burn all the way back to self-identity (ie: it remains safe so long as we can reject quantifying it).

    And I probably don't need to say anything about group identity. The kind of dissonance brought on that way, and the methods use to overcome it, is amazing. True for religion, social groups, companies, clubs... Same for Mensa as it is for Nation states.

    What is feared here? What is trying to be avoided by the convolutions of thought?
    The mind does not like losing coherency. The most common form of dissonance comes from groupings, such as "this religion is good, but my good friend quit", "my kid is good, but misbehaved", "nerds are like 'this' and this cool guy is into the same things".

    The mind does not want to lose coherency, but when the logical structures break down, it ceases to be able to process until new paths are carved in.

    It's like having a calculator put out the wrong answer, and so you take a hammer to it. The calculator would rather like you to stop doing that, and so it starts putting out the right answer.

    Why is it hard to allow one's worldview to shift... or to embrace ambiguity?
    Ambiguity isn't a problem. Ambiguity is a weak logical statement that is easily adaptable - if a concept is not solid, then it offers very little resistance to change. Worldview is just a phrase used to express coherency. To lose coherency is difficult and makes us non-functional and so we have resistance against losing coherency.

    It is rather like saying "I don't know" as compared to "I was wrong".

    It is also more/less difficult depending on the strength of existing structures, and the need to rationalize behaviour.

    Who pays the expense of the unwillingness to change?
    Different expenses for different people in different situation. Humans respect the unwillingness to change a lot, so there are many benefits to be non-adaptive. However, adaptability can also help you adjust to new situations - but not many of us are faced with consistently new situations in which benefits could emerge.

    For example, in a tribe, everyone is good. Outsiders are bad. If you are placed in another tribe, you suddenly realize they are just like you. However, very few people will ever be in that situation. And it scales up too - nation states have the same effect.

    A good example is also in religion. There is no particular loss by rejecting a friend because they changed groups. If anything, solidifying your belief in the group has more benefits than rejecting the strength of the group and keeping the friend.

    On the other hand, harmful behavior can be protected by the unwillingness to change, but normally harmful behavior is not kept in check by dissonance.

    Using MBTI stereotypes, the dissonance causing change doesn't have to be intuitive. NTs, for example, may be willing to reject an idea they have formed if challenged/perceived as not being 'rational' (assuming they have identified it). One example being the rejection of faith items (acceptance would cause dissonance, and it would be burned and blocked).

    Do Eastern cultures have it easier than Western?
    Dissonance, and its brothers denial and rationalization, are omni-present in Eastern cultures. Social conformity and all that lead to a shocking amount of beliefs and actions that are maintained through identification with them. I figure it comes from a more institutionalized hierarchy, but I have no idea.

  8. #58
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Dissonance, and its brothers denial and rationalization, are omni-present in Eastern cultures. Social conformity and all that lead to a shocking amount of beliefs and actions that are maintained through identification with them. I figure it comes from a more institutionalized hierarchy, but I have no idea.
    The proscribed solution often comes with that nice shrink wrap packaging which looks so alluring on the shelf

    Nice to see you back pt
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #59
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    This was indirectly related to dissonance, so I thought I'd throw it in here. Probably could be its own thread, but...

    The Power of Political Misinformation

  10. #60
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    This was indirectly related to dissonance, so I thought I'd throw it in here. Probably could be its own thread, but...

    The Power of Political Misinformation
    I'm a little perturbed by that article. Sure I intuitively think it's got a point but the proofs they use just don't follow. The whole Koran flushing part, just because the percentage remains 10% elevated does not mean it's due to the misinformation, that's just not logical.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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