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  1. #21
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Astronomers and Astrology; Psychometricians and MBTI

    What is even more interesting is this -

    Just as no astronomer believes in astrology, no psychometrician believes in MBTI.

    One would think that this would cause cognitive dissonance in the members of MBTIc. But it doesn't.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    What is even more interesting is this -

    Just as no astronomer believes in astrology, no psychometrician believes in MBTI.

    One would think that this would cause cognitive dissonance in the members of MBTIc. But it doesn't.
    Why is that interesting?
    And why are you equating that to cognitive dissonance?
    Praytell, explain.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So why did you feel your spiritual beliefs had to change? (If you want to talk about it.)

    If it was painful, you must have felt like you had good reason to make that modification in order for you to proceed.


    There were lots of different factors involved that make it difficult to assign anyone thing to the cause. Some of the things I once thought of as causes were perhaps just triggers for something that was already there. For example, I had encounters with some bad church politics. It really hurt my faith to see that some of the church leadership, those I expected to have a strong embodiment of Christian ideals, were behaving very unChristian-like. I realize that no one is without sin, etc., but these people were acting like and not exactly repentant about it. However, if there was no internal challange to my faith, these negative experiences would probably only cause a spiritual slump which I would recover from.

    However, there was something, actually a lot of things buried/repressed that came to light during the time my convention faith was challanged by this. First off is that for quite a while I was drawn - very strongly - to metaphysics and various New Age/alternative spirituality ideals. All of this was more or less repressed, partly because I percieved it as not acceptable, but mostly because it went againt Christian teachings. Also repressed: some of the values and ideals I held did not seem compatible to the Christian faith, at least not how it seems to be presented currently. Sometimes I think my faith may have been reconcilled if there was an extremely liberal church in my area. I would occasionally feel a spiritual presence and this occured with both Christianity and other faiths which kind of put me at odds with the whole "one true God" doctrine. The reverse was an issue as well, some of the Christain churches I did not sense the presence of God.

    So once all this repressed stuff came back light, there was no stuffing it back. It was like I had pulled the stone that triggered an avalanche. The mountain might be peaceful for years even though it has the potential for avalanche. Once the avalanche strarts you can't stop it by putting the stone back.

    Ilah

  4. #24
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    What is even more interesting is this -

    Just as no astronomer believes in astrology, no psychometrician believes in MBTI.

    One would think that this would cause cognitive dissonance in the members of MBTIc. But it doesn't.
    If I hold two (seemingly) contradictory beliefs, that is cognitive dissonance. If you do not agree with my beliefs, that is not congative dissonance.

    Let me give an extended example using astrology.

    For this example, I assume I believe in astrology. (I don't really.)

    If you give me a study with convincing proof that astrology is not true and I immediately stop believing in astrology, there is no cognative dissonance.

    If I immediately reject your study, there is no cognative dissonance. I could say you are lying, you are mistaken, the study was flawed, you have an obvoius anti-New Age bias, it was a government conspiracy against psychics. It doesn't matter if my reasoning is sound, if I can completely convince myself to disregard the evidence there is no congnative dissonance. However if you have managed to instill some doubt in me, then there is some level of cognative dissonance.

    However, if I believe that the study is sound and true by also still feel that astrology is true, then there is cognative dissonance. I will feel mentally, emotionly, or psychologically uneasy till I have discarded one of the beliefs or modified one of them so they don't contradict each other.

    As far as problems with MBTI: I would be willing to discuss with you, but I need to have some more details before I could respond. For example, what aspects of MBTI do you feel are not valid and why? It isn't helpful to say all of it. I am not persuaded by simply hearing that other people don't believe in it - I need to hear for myself the reasoning as to why they don't believe. And no circular logic like "they don't believe it because it isn't valid." Also I am not persuaded by guilt by association, i.e. the Nazi argument.

    As for specific examples of MBTI problems, I posted something earlier today about the forced choice we have for our auxilary function. To summarize, based on our dominant function we only have two option we can choose for our auxilary function, but one of the other functions might actually be our second strongest. So far it has 22 views but no responses.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    *Drags out her largest edition of OAD and swats Jennifer with it.*

    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    *Drags out her largest edition of OAD and swats Jennifer with it.*
    Hey! What did I do to get that level of incongruence!?







    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Can you spell "disingenous," Rascally Jennifer?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    "The reduction in cognitive dissonance" sounds like a title for an INTPs memoirs to me...
    Agreed, I think this is what ultimately sets INTPs apart from other types; we experience more pain from this phenomenon than other types while at the same type noticing such apparant contradictions more readily than other types. Consequently, we spend a great deal of time reconciling these contradictions in an attempt to reduce the unpleasant sensation of cognitive dissonance

    I should mention that this is not necessarily something for us to brag about; our beliefs often conflict because one or the other is simply wrong (possibly because of faulty reasoning), forcing us to constantly acknowledge our moral and intellectual shortcomings. This in turn often leads to chronic self-esteem and motivation issues, which subsequently influences everything about our lives. In short, by trying to avoid being wrong about anything, we often lack the ability to be (mostly) right about anything.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    If I hold two (seemingly) contradictory beliefs, that is cognitive dissonance. If you do not agree with my beliefs, that is not congative dissonance.

    Let me give an extended example using astrology.

    For this example, I assume I believe in astrology. (I don't really.)

    If you give me a study with convincing proof that astrology is not true and I immediately stop believing in astrology, there is no cognative dissonance.

    If I immediately reject your study, there is no cognative dissonance. I could say you are lying, you are mistaken, the study was flawed, you have an obvoius anti-New Age bias, it was a government conspiracy against psychics. It doesn't matter if my reasoning is sound, if I can completely convince myself to disregard the evidence there is no congnative dissonance. However if you have managed to instill some doubt in me, then there is some level of cognative dissonance.

    However, if I believe that the study is sound and true by also still feel that astrology is true, then there is cognative dissonance. I will feel mentally, emotionly, or psychologically uneasy till I have discarded one of the beliefs or modified one of them so they don't contradict each other.

    As far as problems with MBTI: I would be willing to discuss with you, but I need to have some more details before I could respond. For example, what aspects of MBTI do you feel are not valid and why? It isn't helpful to say all of it. I am not persuaded by simply hearing that other people don't believe in it - I need to hear for myself the reasoning as to why they don't believe. And no circular logic like "they don't believe it because it isn't valid." Also I am not persuaded by guilt by association, i.e. the Nazi argument.

    As for specific examples of MBTI problems, I posted something earlier today about the forced choice we have for our auxilary function. To summarize, based on our dominant function we only have two option we can choose for our auxilary function, but one of the other functions might actually be our second strongest. So far it has 22 views but no responses.
    I think you are rationalizing but you do it very well.

    But the fact is that those who design personality tests are called psychometricians. They are trained in Universities.

    So far all qualified psychometricians say that, as personality test, MBTI is invalid and unreliable.

    They go further and say, MBTI has the same truth value as astrology.

    You can confirm this yourself by ringing the Psychology Department of your local University.

    Oddly enough you believe astronomers when they say that astrology has no truth value, but not qualified psychometricians when they say that MBTI has no truth value.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Here's one I deal with:

    I like to believe that everyone has positive intentions. . .
    Heh. Now, see, I believe that *most* people have positive intentions. Some people, though, are just @ssholes.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

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