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  1. #91
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    But look, the title of this thread is Cognitive Dissonance.

    So we can reasonably do two things - we can talk about cognitive dissonance or we can demonstrate cognitive dissonance.

    I am demonstrating cognitive dissonance.

    And naturally this causes actual cognitive dissonance in your mind - and cognitive dissonance is mentally painful - so the temptation is to blame me.

    This is quite natural but of course cheap.

    It is the cognitive dissonance, not I, that is causing your mental pain.

    And your pain is trying to tell you something.

    It is telling you not to do something.

    Pain, even mental pain, is a warning that something is wrong.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Unfortunately this is the easy way out.

    In a contradiction, both statements can be false, or one or the other true and the other false, but both statements cannot be true at the same time.

    So you are taking a metaphor which implies or says that both parts of a contradiction can be true at the same time.

    This is the kind of pseudo thinking that makes Romanticism, the New Age and MBTI possible.

    Of course the advantage of pseudo thinking is that it makes you feel good and it facilitates the conning of others - while it manages to avoid the empirical facts.

    And what is amazing is that pseudo thinking is presented with a straight face.

    But I guess when you can fake sincerity, you've got is made.

    Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's odd to me that someone with well-developed thinking skills can't comprehend it. So there we have it, and "ne'er the twain shall meet."

    You don't really think faking sincerity is possible do you?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    You don't really think faking sincerity is possible do you?
    This is a saying within the United States of America.

    And it is a pregnant saying for the US makes the distinction between fakery and sincerity.

    In the US it is compliment to be called sincere and an insult to be called a fake.

    And the US is a constant struggle beween fakery and the sincere - and fakery often wins - and phoniness has been raised to a high art.

    So everyone tries to appear sincere in the eyes of others but there is the constant, ever present, temptation to fake it for personal advantage.

    And this temptation is so common that it has given rise to the truism or saying, "In America when you can fake sincerity, you've got it made".

  4. #94
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Victor, would it surprise you to learn that I do know of someone who uses the MBTI and is qualified as a psychologist. This person is self employed and has a good reputation. I have met some of the people he has "handled" in his time and all of them, without exception, support his use of the MBTI.

    Now either he's great at persuading people or there's something to this MBTI thing. So it can't be validated by current thinking in psychometry... so what? After you move from observation all patterns become prescriptive instead of descriptive anyway.. why is the MBTI any different?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Victor, would it surprise you to learn that I do know of someone who uses the MBTI and is qualified as a psychologist. This person is self employed and has a good reputation. I have met some of the people he has "handled" in his time and all of them, without exception, support his use of the MBTI.

    Now either he's great at persuading people or there's something to this MBTI thing. So it can't be validated by current thinking in psychometry... so what? After you move from observation all patterns become prescriptive instead of descriptive anyway.. why is the MBTI any different?
    Because MBTI is global. It is used by many, many people in many different circumstances.

    It is not as big as astrology but it is moving in that direction.

    And just as we ask Astronomers whether there is any truth value in astrology, we ask is there any truth value in MBTI.

    But MBTI looks just like a cult. It has its own jargon. It has its own Guru. It is impervious to evidence.

    And cults are in a cleft stick. As the evidence piles up against them, they answer it with nastiness. And sometimes it can get very nasty.

    But the worst of it is that MBTI meets an underlying need. It meets the needs of those who are lost and are trying to find themselves and each other.

    And it is this need that makes us gullible.

    But the really awful thing about MBTI is that once we have been taken in, once our intellectual integrity has been corrupted, we seek to corrupt others.

  6. #96
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    It's valid because with it, some of us are better at:

    Understanding people,

    and as a result of this understanding, better at accepting intrinsic personality differences,

    and as a result of recognizing and accepting differences, better at communicating with people than if we used the same method with every person.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Because MBTI is global....

    It is not as big as astrology but it is moving in that direction...

    But the really awful thing about MBTI is that once we have been taken in, once our intellectual integrity has been corrupted, we seek to corrupt others.
    Victor, I'm about the last person on Earth who's going to believe some hokum crap because it makes me feel good to do so. Astrology is exactly that, and I physically laugh at people when they tell me it has merit in person.

    MBTI is not equitable, because if done the way I think is proper, it's based on observable behavior.

    I do agree with you that it is used as a crutch by the emotionally needy, but so are thousands of other things in life.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    It's valid because with it, some of us are better at:

    Understanding people,

    and as a result of this understanding, better at accepting intrinsic personality differences,

    and as a result of recognizing and accepting differences, better at communicating with people than if we used the same method with every person.
    Sure, and all these are worthwhile things to do.

    And you could say the same thing for astrology.

    But I know and probably you know that no Astronomer believes in astrology. But this doesn't stop astrology for being useful in understanding oneself and others.

    But when you look into it, astrology only looks as though it is useful in understanding.

    Here is a simple demonstration of astrology -

    YouTube - James Randi on Astrology

    and it demonstrates astrology is a confidence trick. The same test with the same results could be applied to MBTI.

    And a very long term and comprehensive study has been recently published on astrology and showed it had no truth value at all. But every women's magazine has between one and five pages of astrology and many newspapers have an astrology section.

    MBTI, like astrology, gives the appearance of being helpful because it produces false positives.

    But what is important to keep in mind as you read this thread called Cognitive Dissonance, is that not only is it about cognitive dissonance, it demonstrates cognitive dissonance in regard to, what else, MBTI.

  9. #99
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Victor,

    Cognative dissonance in reference to the MBTI as you're quoting it doesn't really work. Only when people decide to use the MBTI system as a system of rules and boxes does it then not compare to what we know is true. Used as suggestions and as a framework to compare experiences to it does work quite well and observably so.

    Do you hold the colour wheel in equal contempt as the MBTI? Do you really think that what you see as yellow is yellow or is that merely an agreed standard? Should we now persue all those who claim to see yellow and re-educate them to prevent the spreading of this mental decay?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    ...and it demonstrates astrology is a confidence trick. The same test with the same results could be applied to MBTI.

    And a very long term and comprehensive study has been recently published on astrology and showed it had no truth value at all. But every women's magazine has between one and five pages of astrology and many newspapers have an astrology section.

    MBTI, like astrology, gives the appearance of being helpful because it produces false positives.
    I think we agree on the fundamentals more than is obvious. Perhaps you fail to notice or admit that there are different ways of handling the 16-type systems.

    If you've read many of my posts here, for example, you would be aware that I do not approve of the way...probably most people use 16-type and especially MBTI itself.

    When people who fail to perceive what I see as the true nature of a system nevertheless adopt it, spread it, and preach their understanding of it, it irritates me to no end.

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