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  1. #31
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I can definitely see there are more guys with tech related interests. I'm just remembering growing up with my super-nerd INFJ brother, and he almost never had guy friends. He was into theoretical physics and Dr Who even as a child with little hope of finding anyone like minded. It's hard to say which one of us had a harder time finding friends to talk to about interesting things. He wasn't rigorously technical with computers, but proficient talking about it. There's so much macho interfacing between guys socially that is just as subjective and emotionally driven as the giggly relationship and clothing talk women have.
    I've always found the concept that "men are less emotionally-driven" to be ridiculous. They express emotions in different ways, but the idea that most men don't act on them or make judgments based on them is pretty ludicrous. I suspect that people are confusing "emotional" with being overly huggy.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21lux View Post
    Yeah. I didn't really mean that they have it easier, just that it's more "acceptable". Kind of like how it's acceptable for women to wear men's clothing but "unacceptable" for men to wear women's clothing (ugh). I also have the feeling that for women Ts, people would be more likely to feign acceptance but totally be silently judging you for not being more womanly/ladylike/feminine etc, whereas I feel like male Fs would be more likely to be physically confronted. Am I the only one who thinks that?
    As long as they keep their judgments to themselves and don't get in my way, I really don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Part of the reason I've avoided what would be my normal professional environments is because I'm not T enough. More than that I'm not male enough. I've observed the women who do get the jobs and some level of success and even their external appearance, dress, haircut, mannerisms have to be masculine. For one simple example, virtually no female music professor I've ever had would have long hair. It is always short, butch, their manner rough, clipped, and masculine. I'd have to consciously change my external self if I ever hoped to get a job. I'm sure people will immediately think of exceptions, and yes, there are exceptions, but statistically it is how I describe it.
    But what makes short hair masculine? There were vast periods of history where men had long hair, too (Samson was no anomaly). And all those other traits - why do the useful ones get called "masculine" and the decorative or outright counterproductive ones "feminine"? I have no problem with being a woman, but I don't see why that should suggest I will behave in one way as opposed to another, or prefer one thing over another.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I like this. Would it be the same though with a generalized group of men? It seems like sports and politics are common topics of choice. I wonder how the percentages would look for either gender to talk about interesting topics.
    Yes, men just tend to have a different set of superficial topics, sports and cars being common ones. On average, though, I can usually get a better discussion with a group of women than men. (At least there's a chance I will learn something useful in the car discussion.)

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I've always found the concept that "men are less emotionally-driven" to be ridiculous. They express emotions in different ways, but the idea that most men don't act on them or make judgments based on them is pretty ludicrous. I suspect that people are confusing "emotional" with being overly huggy.
    Just look at a group of men watching a sporting event to see the truth of this.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #33
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I have seen a few male Fs who were bullied at school (not knowingly for their preference by more for their lack of desire for logic and their more reactionary responses to jibes). It can be almost like they dislike themselves for not being able to do the male thing and set their minds to do evil things in response. In fact my best man often gets quite wound up because he would like to be less caring and get more of what he wants... But he can't quite manage it.

    As for T women, I think that half the time they are blissfully unaware of any issue. I think the problem usually comes from other females who don't like this new vibe and pick a pack they attack to redress the unwanted behaviour. Of course most people are cowards so they do it passive aggressive.

    I have one new member of staff who seems to be ISTJ or INTJ and she's rubbing other women up the wrong way. They see her as almost snobbish where as I've found her to be blunt but fascinating to talk to. Oddly enough my ENFJ boss is blunt to a fault and she doesn't like this woman either.

    Some days I just imagine an F brain working like a popular soap opera... The drama, the complicated and slightly unbelievable plots... Mind you, I am a cynic.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #34
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    T women can bully other T women, too. I've seen it happen. I'd be cautious about being too reverent about the inherent inborn stoicism of T types. Being unaware of or neglecting emotional responses is not the same thing as not having them.

    Could you define what you mean by F types not using logic? What was an instance where they were failing to apply it?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  5. #35
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    T women can bully other T women, too. I've seen it happen. I'd be cautious about being too reverent about the inherent inborn stoicism of T types. Being unaware of or neglecting emotional responses is not the same thing as not having them.
    Yeah, no type is perfect. I know some definite T's, who do vindictive/petty things but deny they're doing anything. And I do believe they believe that. They think they are too logical and impartial for such things. Shadow F can be ugly (just as any shadow function can be).
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    I guess T is just less likely to dwell on negative emotions while with F simmers in them. Rejection would just end up being a much smaller part of a Ts world, and it would encompass nearly everything in the world of a strong feeler. Guess thats just the nature of personality preferences.

    Are T men more likely to be stronger Ts than T women? Are people of a gender that is sterotyped one way more likely to develop their functions that help them relate better to their peers? Will they try to go more against the grain of their own personality type, and develop their lower order functions more than those of the opposite sex? Thoughts?

  7. #37
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Could you define what you mean by F types not using logic? What was an instance where they were failing to apply it?
    Say your boss makes some pointed but valid criticisms of your work, perhaps even more harshly than normal since there are deadlines and he is under alot of stress. You are generally on good terms with him and he sees you as a good performer overall. You even understand how/where you messed up in the present case. But you still feel the sting of the criticism, and lash out at him in anger, not namecalling but accusing him of being unfair, not appreciating you, etc. etc. The situation can easily escalate from here.

    Logic will see this. It will understand: yes, I'm angry, and the boss could have been kinder in his criticism, but he's right and yelling accusations won't help. It will just make things worse. Best thing to do is to is to acknowledge my mistake, do my best to fix it, and learn from it for the future.

    I'm sure T types do this sort of thing, too, but Fs seem more likely to take things personally and react from their emotion, in a way that they feel will be emotionally satisfying in the moment, even if it makes things worse overall. I think Ts are more likely to have enough detachment from the situation to realize that an emotional response will do more harm than good, even if the boss is completely wrong, never liked you, or is being irrational himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Are T men more likely to be stronger Ts than T women? Are people of a gender that is sterotyped one way more likely to develop their functions that help them relate better to their peers? Will they try to go more against the grain of their own personality type, and develop their lower order functions more than those of the opposite sex? Thoughts?
    I think people in the minority for their gender may choose to learn to emulate the expected behaviors and reactions to get along or get ahead, but their real preferences won't be stronger than their typemates of the opposite sex. Some of us are just less willing to bother with this than others.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #38
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Personally I have had problems with friends who expect me to sympathize with certain individuals and their hardships, usually my resonse to this is to point out what the person did to deserve what happened to them, this leads to people looking at me like what??

    Lately it is annoying as all hell because I keep getting told off for not being friendly enough with people. I generally just do not like talking to people my own age, especially girls my own age, because generally it is all just drama. I can enjoy drama and gossip to an extent, but they will like cry and everyone will be hugging and I am wondering what the big deal is.

    Like the other day the people at work were all talking about their depression and suicide attempts and crying and I was like seriously... I guess I am just not that deep. Society does expect quite alot of women in regards to nurturing.
    lol, you almost sound like a TJ

  9. #39
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Oh yeah I am absolutely horrible when someone is having some sort of emotional problem. The one guy was telling me he was suicidal and the first thing I told his was that maybe he wouldnt be so depressed if he stopped drinking all the time and started going to class. Friend gets fired from job and I ask what she did wrong and for all the details first instead of offering my condolences, usually though I realize that some sympathy is warrented but it usually comes wayy later than the other person expects. My work though is the exception, it is like an emotional roller coaster for people there, there is always someone crying or have some serious emotional conversation, I stay away because I know 9 times out of ten I will say something or make some sort of joke and the person will start crying harder. It has happened there.

  10. #40
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Oh yeah I am absolutely horrible when someone is having some sort of emotional problem. The one guy was telling me he was suicidal and the first thing I told his was that maybe he wouldnt be so depressed if he stopped drinking all the time and started going to class. Friend gets fired from job and I ask what she did wrong and for all the details first instead of offering my condolences, usually though I realize that some sympathy is warrented but it usually comes wayy later than the other person expects. My work though is the exception, it is like an emotional roller coaster for people there, there is always someone crying or have some serious emotional conversation, I stay away because I know 9 times out of ten I will say something or make some sort of joke and the person will start crying harder. It has happened there.
    I did this all the time. Now I just say - I'm sorry to hear that, <insert solution to issue>. I feel compelled to give the solution but there are way less people running away crying in my life if I offer the sympathy first, and quickly. Occasionally, very occasionally, someone will actually appreciate the solution. Usually they just want to vent.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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