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non-binary gender (not trans)

BadOctopus

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Yes, it's not possible to ignore things like physical attributes, or the types of hormones coursing through your body. But a large part of what we consider being a gender is non-biological cultural construct (clothing, colors, mannerisms, relationship roles), as you are well aware, and that's what people refer to in this context. That's why people have to make further distinctions between what you're born with and all that other stuff that you identify with (cis-gender, gender-queer).
Thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering.

I can also understand [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]'s annoyance with people who whine and demand special treatment because there's no "non-binary" option on a driver's license application. I mean, they're not asking you what gender you feel like on the inside, whether it's male, female, or neither. All they're asking for is your physical gender.

I don't like specifying my race when filling out forms, because it's irrelevant. Also, there's no "English-Scottish-Mexican-Italian hybrid" option. But I'm not going to make a big stink about it.
 

prplchknz

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Thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering.

I can also understand [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]'s annoyance with people who whine and demand special treatment because there's no "non-binary" option on a driver's license application. I mean, they're not asking you what gender you feel like on the inside, whether it's make, female, or neither. All they're asking for is your physical gender.

I don't like specifying my race when filling out forms, because it's irrelevant. Also, there's no "English-Scottish-Mexican-Italian hybrid" option. But I'm not going to make a big stink about it.

yes yes yes!!!! I want to kiss you right now. you actually get it, thank you!!!!
 

Qlip

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Thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering.

I can also understand [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]'s annoyance with people who whine and demand special treatment because there's no "non-binary" option on a driver's license application. I mean, they're not asking you what gender you feel like on the inside, whether it's make, female, or neither. All they're asking for is your physical gender.

I don't like specifying my race when filling out forms, because it's irrelevant. Also, there's no "English-Scottish-Mexican-Italian hybrid" option. But I'm not going to make a big stink about it.

Yeah, I had a feeling that you as an INTJ woman probably tuned out the nonsense a long time ago. I'd personally just as soon obliterate the expectations than create new specific sets. That's probably pretty Fi-ey, though.
 

prplchknz

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Thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering.

I can also understand [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]'s annoyance with people who whine and demand special treatment because there's no "non-binary" option on a driver's license application. I mean, they're not asking you what gender you feel like on the inside, whether it's male, female, or neither. All they're asking for is your physical gender.

I don't like specifying my race when filling out forms, because it's irrelevant. Also, there's no "English-Scottish-Mexican-Italian hybrid" option. But I'm not going to make a big stink about it.

the whole purpose of it end in that scenerio is to identify your corpse or if you go missing and if you put your gender is two-spirit that's not helpful. that being said you do have a pic so they could use that making gender useless.
 

EJCC

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Thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering.

I can also understand [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]'s annoyance with people who whine and demand special treatment because there's no "non-binary" option on a driver's license application. I mean, they're not asking you what gender you feel like on the inside, whether it's male, female, or neither. All they're asking for is your physical gender.

I don't like specifying my race when filling out forms, because it's irrelevant. Also, there's no "English-Scottish-Mexican-Italian hybrid" option. But I'm not going to make a big stink about it.
There are times when asking for your sex makes sense. There are times when asking for your gender makes sense. I think a lot of forms ask for gender when they should be asking for sex. (As far as I can tell, "physical gender" is incorrect terminology -- gender is gender and sex is sex.)

Found this article when looking for good material to post in-thread, and it was super interesting and informative: Sex and gender | Formulate Information Design

the whole purpose of it end in that scenerio is to identify your corpse or if you go missing and if you put your gender is two-spirit that's not helpful. that being said you do have a pic so they could use that making gender useless.
Which means the form should have been asking for your sex. Bad move for them to have been asking for your gender, because gender is irrelevant in that case.
 
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BadOctopus

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I'd personally just as soon obliterate the expectations than create new specific sets.
Seconded. Just eliminate the distinctions between genders altogether. Why make the world more complicated than it already is?

Plus, do we really need to invent new pronouns to use when referring to people? Ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
 

prplchknz

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There are times when asking for your sex makes sense. There are times when asking for your gender makes sense. I think a lot of forms ask for gender when they should be asking for sex. (As far as I can tell, "physical gender" is incorrect terminology -- gender is gender and sex is sex.)

Found this article when looking for good material to post in-thread, and it was super interesting and informative: Sex and gender | Formulate Information Design


Which means the form should have been asking for your sex. Bad move for them to have been asking for your gender, because gender is irrelevant in that case.

actually perhaps they should ask for neither since your photo is required
 

Entropic

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Unless you associate every social interaction in your life with sex, yes.



Too many people doing that and it's annoying.

Gender is so much more than sex, lol. Your entire physical presentation including body language, speech patterns and so on, deal with gender. Your haircut, your clothes, your voice, your face, your body shape, the way you move and talk, the way you sit, the way you greet people, the way you relate to other people around you, both adults and children, ALL of it deals with gender. Claiming otherwise just sounds ignorant, tbh.

Gender isn't just your physical bits and I wish people would realize and stop conflate gender as a means of social expression, gender as in your actual sex and gender in how it relates to one's sense of self and identity. All of these things tie together to create a holistic idea of "gender."

Non-binary people stick out as sore thumbs because they choose to present themselves in a way that does not fit the binary system and will thus be far more likely targets for harassment. It's not something they chose because they express themselves in a way that feels true to them. They can inform people in their environment about how they want others to see them but frankly, it would be way easier if people didn't always get so hung up on it and chose to be dicks about it. It's like I go watch a Youtube video like this one:


And the first thing people do is bitching whether the singer is a man or a woman lol, because he chooses non-binary gender expressions that come across as androgynous so people suddenly got issues placing him within the binary system. I mean, really, is it that difficult?

Thanks, that's pretty much what I was wondering.

I can also understand [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]'s annoyance with people who whine and demand special treatment because there's no "non-binary" option on a driver's license application. I mean, they're not asking you what gender you feel like on the inside, whether it's male, female, or neither. All they're asking for is your physical gender.

I don't like specifying my race when filling out forms, because it's irrelevant. Also, there's no "English-Scottish-Mexican-Italian hybrid" option. But I'm not going to make a big stink about it.

Sigh, but no. It's not that simple, it really isn't. This issue isn't just for non-binary, but this issue applies as much to transsexuals as well. See, here's the deal: I transitioned but have yet to have had my legal gender change. Outwardly, I present as male and look like a male and 99% of the population thinks I'm male except in those rare situations that people either don't hear properly or need to get glasses and those happen to everyone, even cisborn, but my ID says female. Does that make sense to you? Why do they need to know what parts I have in order to have proper identification? And the thing is, they don't. No one needs to know what parts you were born with in order to identify you. It's not a matter of them asking for sex and confusing it with gender, but it's the underlying assumption that sex = gender, which btw, is also seen in this thread here from the OP as well, and the bitching that comes with it when non-binary would ask for a little bit more leeway and jiggle room, which also benefits transsexuals and not just non-binary folks. Seriously, your genitals got zero bearing in people's ability to identify you as a person and there are only a few cases (mostly medical) where such a thing is necessary. So why keep it there? And let's take the subject of intersex individuals, where do we classify them when giving out an ID? A lot of intersex individuals cannot be easily classified as either male or female because nature itself doesn't work that way, so why the fuck does our society work that way? Why should the state decide your gender, not just including deciding the nature of your physical body, but also the nature of your identity and assume that your body = identity?

On top of this, there's an entire slew of juridical effects that come from the state deciding who you are: it includes how you are recorded when it comes to your marital status and changes (if your legal gender is male, it's going to say husband in the papers), it decides what names you can choose to pick from if you would desire to have a name change; it in many cases determines what kind of medical access you can have which, especially when it comes to people who choose to transition, can hinder them in their process because it refuses them to gain access to surgery and treatment that they need in order to alleviate dysphoria and this is just the tip of the iceberg, really.

The introduction of a third option serves many purposes, but mostly, it serves the purpose to help governments make a transition from a binary to a non-binary system. This is strictly speaking from a judicial point of view and doesn't consider individual feelings and the like into account such as what may happen when a trans person decides to travel to another country without having had a legal gender change and may get stopped at the airport and accused of counterfeit ID and the like, and in worst case scenario, is charged of terrorism. It's not the first time that has happened and it certainly won't be the last.

Having a third option not only a) recognizes people who experience themselves to be non-binary e.g. agender, genderqueer and whatnot people to have that as an actual legal option which again, affects a lot of legal stuff such as what pronoun you are being referred to in legal papers, b) but it helps governments to deal with people who for various reasons cannot currently fit into a binary model e.g. people in transition or people born intersex. This isn't just a matter of opinion and thinking that the binary system is sufficient to deal with people's identities and their relationship to their bodies, but this is very important at an actual judicial state level to recognize that there is in fact a need to have a third option available and that gender or sex, both or neither of them, serve little to no purpose when it comes to ultimately identifying an individual because visual identification a.k.a photo, is still the most relevant form in order to match whether a person is who they claim to be. People are again, not going to look at your bits and there are many ways to conceal the outwards visibility of bits (binding, tucking), so again, the problem with the binary is actually that it comes with a lot of underlying assumptions about what and who someone is because it says M or F on your ID, assumptions that are not always true and may even potentially hurt and damage individuals. And again, that is not accounting the potential dysphoria a trans person, non-binary or binary, may experience by being constantly reminded that the world at large does not recognize their internally felt experience and who they feel they are.

Now, am I advocating that the state should recognize over 9000 different gender identities? No, that's not the point and frankly, I don't think you are going to run into a lot of these people in the first place who seriously advocate this, even within the trans community. Ideally, I think legal gender as a construct should be abolished because I think it causes too much unnecessary bureaucracy which could be resolved in a much more efficient way, but that's my personal opinion.

Asking to be recognized and be respected is not the same as claiming snowflake status, it really isn't. Claiming on the one hand that a) I don't have a problem but b) stop make so many demands on rights to have is really contradictory and bigoted as fuck. It's the same problem I run into when I see islamophobes saying, "I'm not racist, I just don't like Muslims" and think that just because their ethnicity is categorized based on a religion, it somehow means they are not making a racist statement. Seriously, get real.
 

EJCC

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actually perhaps they should ask for neither since your photo is required
If it's for identifying your corpse: what if your head got chopped off, or your face was bashed in to the point of being unrecognizable? What if they found your skeleton? They could mostly tell your sex based on your skeleton, but your photo would be useless.
 

Totenkindly

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If it's for identifying your corpse: what if your head got chopped off, or your face was bashed in to the point of being unrecognizable? What if they found your skeleton? They could mostly tell your sex based on your skeleton, but your photo would be useless.

It's probably one of the few situations where chromosomal sex is actually relevant for identification.
 

prplchknz

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If it's for identifying your corpse: what if your head got chopped off, or your face was bashed in to the point of being unrecognizable? What if they found your skeleton? They could mostly tell your sex based on your skeleton, but your photo would be useless.

without a head they still couldn't id you which is why they often use dental records and medical records perhaps that should be included as well
 

prplchknz

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It's probably one of the few situations where chromosomal sex is actually relevant for identification.

ok i have a transition question, when you transition like physically transition does you chromosomes change or are they always the same?
 

Totenkindly

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ok i have a transition question, when you transition like physically transition does you chromosomes change or are they always the same?

They don't change. Maybe one day that will change, but not now.

Hence, you can confuse the police if they're trying to ID your body and it doesn't match your chromosomes and they don't know your background. (Morbid Award there.)

EDIT: Random note. I actually read some kind of creepy supernatural/murder mystery novel back in the early 80's where that was the "twist" and demons took over the world cuz they didn't solve the crime in time. Just a bad call.
 

prplchknz

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They don't change. Maybe one day that will change, but not now.

Hence, you can confuse the police if they're trying to ID your body and don't know your background. (Yikes, that's kinda morbid.)

moral of the story, don't die in a suspicious manner at suspicious place :newwink:

in seriourness though, why don't they put that on the forum like "we need this incase you die and we need to id your body but your chronosomal sex does not change, we're not trying to opress you, but we;re sure you loved ones would like to know if your dead or just missing, if the occasion arises" ?
 

93JC

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ok i have a transition question, when you transition like physically transition does you chromosomes change or are they always the same?

DNA doesn't change.

That said, there are people born with chromosomal anomalies who don't have XX or XY sex chromosomes.
 

BadOctopus

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[MENTION=16405]Entropic[/MENTION] Yes, ideally, it would be simpler if we weren't required to state our gender, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon.

What about an "Other - Please specify" option. Would that suffice? Or is that offensive?
 

Totenkindly

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moral of the story, don't die in a suspicious manner at suspicious place :newwink:

in seriourness though, why don't they put that on the forum like "we need this incase you die and we need to id your body but your chronosomal sex does not change, we're not trying to opress you, but we;re sure you loved ones would like to know if your dead or just missing, if the occasion arises" ?

It's a little wordy, donchathink?

And 93Jc is right, not every person has an XX or XY, there are other combinations as well.
 

Entropic

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[MENTION=16405]Entropic[/MENTION] Yes, ideally, it would be simpler if we weren't required to state our gender, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon.

What about an "Other - Please specify" option. Would that suffice? Or is that offensive?

No, I think "other" is just fine though I find it problematic in how "other" creates an othering, but in the light of governments making that transition, it's better than nothing. At least it may alleviate the current gatekeeping somewhat, among other things, and make people who absolutely do not want either M or F on their ID to pick that as an option.
 

prplchknz

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It's a little wordy, donchathink?

And 93Jc is right, not every person has an XX or XY, there are other combinations as well.

not really too wordy its like a line and a half at most
 
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