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  1. #71
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    but why on a government form does it need to be that detailed. what i said broadly covers everything. I guess i did forget both. so there both happy?
    One of the key points from the article I listed was that the government and other organizations benefit from information related to the percentage of DFAB and DMAB people (I like those terms @Chanaynay!) in America, the percentage of people with particular gender identities in America, etc. It's useful demographic information.

    Also what Chanaynay said about equal representation.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #72
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This is essentially the same question that people used to have about gay marriage. The answer being, we can't know that they're sincere about their gender identity -- but we have never known that they're sincere, so in that respect nothing would change.


    I suspect that the problem is that it seems wrong to some people -- it feels like lying about it. And just because you don't feel that way doesn't mean no one else should. Nor does it mean that EVERYONE should.
    it doesn't it's stupid because none of it's wrong i've been called a lesbian number of times and what fucking else a lot of things but i don't feel the need to shout from the roof tops to correct them. this is an example of why pc is destroying society. you don't need to id as anything and to think you do is utter fucking bullshit. dress how you feel comfortable has been my argument this whole thread. but no one is getting it. me being called a lesbian more than once is not oppressive its not. you know why it isn't because there's not a god damn thing wrong with it. labels and boxes and fucking social movements actually do more harm then good some of the time. I'm for equal rights but c'mon lot of the shit is ridiculous i don't give a shit what you are i just don't. there's nothing wrong with it. you want to be sexually attracted to dolphins, great they're horny as fuck anyways.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #73
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Basically she's saying that you're being a special snowflake and need perspective. Despite what you might, and certainly will soon be thinking, I have nothing against you personally. Unfortunately you're insisting that everyone else needs to change for you, and that is just too arrogant for me to ignore.

    I was mercilessly bullied through middle and high school, and you have no idea what I had to endure earlier in my childhood either. I have stared death in the face more than once, but survived so here I am today to give you perspective about suffering. It is offensive to see so many people play the victim on here because they somehow feel different to others. I think it's your mechanism of coping with failure. Guess what, being different doesn't necessarily make you special. Doing something amazing in your life so you will be worshipped long after your death: that makes you special. Become great.

    I feel like I'm swimming in the floods from "oh i'm so tortured nobody understands me...I must just be superior to them" type pity parties sometimes. There is little energy and passion, let alone hope for the future around here at the moment.
    Yeah, you need to drop that projection right away. You don't know my story but it's funny you'd pull the whole "I've been through shit you can't imagine" on me. Utterly fucking hilarious, actually. You should go read my big post I wrote earlier where I elaborate more on what I really think instead of jumping on your knee-jerk and make a bunch of false assumptions about what I am or not.

    Just because I defend the rights of others for self-expression doesn't mean I too think I should be given the same treatment. If you actually bothered to read on my position, I only claim that I think it's extremely transphobic and discriminatory to automatically write off non-binary people as seeking special snowflake status. It doesn't at all try to place oneself in their shoes and understand why they feel the way they do and why they feel expressing themselves in a way that makes them non-binary and then expecting people to respect that. No one has to agree with their mode of expression, but any decent human being should at least respect it. That's not so difficult. And that's regardless of what kind of label they choose to wear or not wear. I never once advocated for the whole hyperbole comment that was made about 500+ different identity options.

    Also, I will tell you one thing: you have no idea what I've been through or what I've done in my life so stop that petty projection right away, it's unbecoming. You do realize it's ironic you'd pull the stunt of using your own trauma as a pencil in order to paint yourself as such a snowflake because only you "know real pain and people who don't are simply shallow who misunderstand so how dare they claim rights to their own mode of self-expression and with that coming across as seeking special snowflake status," where I made no allusions at any given point about what I've been through in my life nor would I actually ever use it in an argument to justify myself or my position.

    If it's one thing I'd never do, it's to play the fucking victim and believe me, I have a lot of right to claim that I am one, way more than most people.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #74
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #75
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    @prplchknz

    That feeling you get when a thread you created gets out of hand:
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  6. #76
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    @prplchknz

    That feeling you get when a thread you created gets out of hand:

    honestly i should be used to it.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/360.html" target="_blank">prplchknz</a>

    That feeling you get when a thread you created gets out of hand:
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  8. #78
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Why do we even need gender? The more genders there are, the more groups there are, the more others there are. Can we not simply have two billion shades of male, female, and shemale? To me, you are male, a man, regardless of how queer you act, think or present yourself.

    Why make it any more difficult?
    I mean, if you want to force people into categories they're not comfortable with then you can erase gender and completely categorize people by whether they have a penis, vagina, or both. But to me it sounds like you're saying that trans/NB identities are invalid because of their "contradictory" sex organs (at least since Rasofy liked it). Gender is a social construct yes, but no gender is wrong. If you don't like gender and just go back to the "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" mentality then how do you account for the people with penises who don't feel like a boy and don't want to be treated as a boy?
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  9. #79
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    At the risk of being sucked into this maelstrom of hostility, I have to ask, because I'm bursting with curiosity: Is it even possible to ignore your gender? Aren't you confronted with it every day?
    Others have responded but I will add my $0.02. We are confronted with our physical sex every day, to be sure. We are confronted with our gender to the extent that we don't fit the expectations of others and they take issue with that. Otherwise, no. I'm with @prplchknz on this. I'm female and don't mind being female but then don't especially identify with it either. To me, it's almost like whether I have long, straight blond hair, or dark hair in tight curls. Either is beautiful in its own way, but which one I have will influence how I cut, style, and care for it. I might wish I had the other, but I can find a way to work with the one I have. It's not that big a deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Yeah, I had a feeling that you as an INTJ woman probably tuned out the nonsense a long time ago. I'd personally just as soon obliterate the expectations than create new specific sets. That's probably pretty Fi-ey, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I'm not exactly sure what the question is.

    I don't like being male though I don't feel female enough to do the surgery. Besides, I'm heterosexual, and I think life would be harder as a lesbian who underwent gender reassignment than an effeminate man in a very typically male body.
    When I was a child, I didn't like being a girl, but that is just because I was surrounded largely by traditional gender role models, and saw options for girls as more limited. When I got old enough to realize I really could do whatever I wanted, I stopped caring. Yes, I have read that for INTJs it is much easier not to care (or simply to be oblivious as we go our own way).

    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Seconded. Just eliminate the distinctions between genders altogether. Why make the world more complicated than it already is?

    Plus, do we really need to invent new pronouns to use when referring to people? Ain't nobody got time fo' dat.
    I see the pronoun issue as much ado about nothing. Unless we are going to revamp the English language to replace he/she with a single pronoun, we should just stop attaching so much significance to it. If we get called by the "wrong" pronoun now and then, not a big deal. If we have a strong preference just ask, same as Michael might ask to be called "Mike". If someone is doing the opposite out of deliberate disrespect, that's a bigger issue than grammar.

    I agree with the male/female/something else choices on forms, and also with not asking that question unless really relevant. (I think Australia recently added a third "neither/other/none of the above" gender category for passports.) That being said, there is something archetypal about the gender binary. That doesn't mean any one of us needs to force ourselves into it. Indeed, I see everyone as some combination of both. Someone who identifies as "male" is simply mostly male, or more male than female, or more interested/indentified with the male aspect, etc. The archetypal part means that many things in society come in complementary gender pairs. We are finally removing this as a restriction for important life matters like marriage and parenting.

    But take, for instance, dancing. Many dance forms have a male part and a female part. Do we get rid of all of this in the interests of gender inclusiveness? Better to let the male and female gendered parts stay, and people choose which one to take. This gender "role", then, remains somewhat arbitrary, but has no purpose outside the activity of the dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Also, I will tell you one thing: you have no idea what I've been through or what I've done in my life so stop that petty projection right away, it's unbecoming. You do realize it's ironic you'd pull the stunt of using your own trauma as a pencil in order to paint yourself as such a snowflake because only you "know real pain and people who don't are simply shallow who misunderstand so how dare they claim rights to their own mode of self-expression and with that coming across as seeking special snowflake status," where I made no allusions at any given point about what I've been through in my life nor would I actually ever use it in an argument to justify myself or my position.
    @Kullervo can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read his comment to mean that people who fall outside the gender binary have no monopoly on suffering bullying or persecution. Anyone who stands out from "the norm" risks that. In that respect, each of us is a "special snowflake", just like everyone else, and may be singled out for whatever makes us special in the "right" time and place.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #80
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Others have responded but I will add my $0.02. We are confronted with our physical sex every day, to be sure. We are confronted with our gender to the extent that we don't fit the expectations of others and they take issue with that. Otherwise, no. I'm with @prplchknz on this. I'm female and don't mind being female but then don't especially identify with it either. To me, it's almost like whether I have long, straight blond hair, or dark hair in tight curls. Either is beautiful in its own way, but which one I have will influence how I cut, style, and care for it. I might wish I had the other, but I can find a way to work with the one I have. It's not that big a deal.
    The inherent problem and underlying assumption is that just because it's not a big deal to you, it should not be a big deal to others either and the world doesn't work that way. You have no right to dictate what is a big or not big a deal to someone else when it comes to their right of identity and mode of self-expression. Just because it feels like this to you, it doesn't mean it feels like this to a non-binary.

    I don't get what is so difficult to understand about this.

    As for what @Kullervo wrote or not, I feel that the entire post twisted my original intention in the first place and used it more as a jab on me as a person because we had a disagreement elsewhere and they thought, for some odd arbitrary reason, that I was defending some stance I was not. Of course people who fall outside the norm experience suffering and it does not give them monopoly to it, but that was never my point. The point is that I don't see what's so difficult to understand that people's experiences differ and to show some little bit of fucking basic understanding along with it. You don't have to like it, but at least respect it, yeah. I think that's very basal just like I don't have to like that someone is a born-again Christian because I'm atheist, but I can still respect their life choice and that they have the right to call themselves Christian and identify as such. This is the right you actually deny these people because you think it seems trivial and they do it for the sake of snowflake status. Do some people do that? Probably. I would say that hardly defines the queer movement, though. They just want to be recognized as everyone else and I utterly fail to see the sin in that.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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