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  1. #31
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    Unless you associate every social interaction in your life with sex, yes.
    That's not really what I mean. I'm not talking about a person's sexual orientation. I'm talking about a person's physical gender. Unless you were born with both sexual organs, or none at all, then you are either a male or a female. It's just a fact. Whether you're straight, gay, bi, trans, asexual, or whatever, that's always going to be a reality. I just don't know if it's truly possible to ignore that.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    That's not really what I mean. I'm not talking about a person's sexual orientation. I'm talking about a person's physical gender. Unless you were born with both sexual organs, or none at all, then you are either a male or a female. It's just a fact. Whether you're straight, gay, bi, trans, asexual, or whatever, that's always going to be a reality. I just don't know if it's truly possible to ignore that.
    Physical gender stems from sex. Sex exists for the endgame goal of sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse exists for reproduction.



    Bar off the possibility of sexual intercourse, and there's no need to recognize a person's sexual organs. You're not a dick or a vagina anymore -- you're a unit, built to do the same mechanical work the rest of the world does in the same way they tell you.

    The social dynamic we've created around males and females is about the facilitation of mating. It serves no practical purpose other than this.

  3. #33
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    Bar off the possibility of sexual intercourse, and there's no need to recognize a person's sexual organs. You're not a dick or a vagina anymore -- you're a unit, built to do the same mechanical work the rest of the world does in the same way they tell you.
    Okay... But those organs are still a part of your body, like any other part. You can refuse to recognize that you have arms, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

  4. #34
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Okay... But those organs are still a part of your body, like any other part. You can refuse to recognize that you have arms, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
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  5. #35
    Pubic Enemy #1 Crabs's Avatar
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    i don't care much about people's gender identity, but i understand complaints that arise due to confusion, such as the recent situation in a gym locker room. Planet Fitness revoke's woman's membership after transgender complaint

    "Our gender identity nondiscrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity."

    i don't understand how objective standards can be enforced upon subjective beliefs. how does an organization even determine whether a person's self-reported gender identity is sincere or not? my Ti is confounded.

  6. #36
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixie sticks View Post
    i don't understand how objective standards can be enforced upon subjective beliefs. how does an organization even determine whether a person's self-reported gender identity is sincere or not? my Ti is confounded.
    This is essentially the same question that people used to have about gay marriage. The answer being, we can't know that they're sincere about their gender identity -- but we have never known that they're sincere, so in that respect nothing would change.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    so my question is why? do they care so much? I'm not talking about trans which would be different from non-binary, and i can understand the need because if you are transitioning from man to woman and going to a doctor or something, somethings are gonna be off they just are. But with non-binary until you can ken doll your genitals there's not i use for it and just seems whiney.
    I suspect that the problem is that it seems wrong to some people -- it feels like lying about it. And just because you don't feel that way doesn't mean no one else should. Nor does it mean that EVERYONE should.
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  7. #37
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    That's not really what I mean. I'm not talking about a person's sexual orientation. I'm talking about a person's physical gender. Unless you were born with both sexual organs, or none at all, then you are either a male or a female. It's just a fact. Whether you're straight, gay, bi, trans, asexual, or whatever, that's always going to be a reality. I just don't know if it's truly possible to ignore that.
    Yes, it's not possible to ignore things like physical attributes, or the types of hormones coursing through your body. But a large part of what we consider being a gender is non-biological cultural construct (clothing, colors, mannerisms, relationship roles), as you are well aware, and that's what people refer to in this context. That's why people have to make further distinctions between what you're born with and all that other stuff that you identify with (cis-gender, gender-queer).
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  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixie sticks View Post
    i don't care much about people's gender identity, but i understand complaints that arise due to confusion, such as the recent situation in a gym locker room. Planet Fitness revoke's woman's membership after transgender complaint

    "Our gender identity nondiscrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity."

    i don't understand how objective standards can be enforced upon subjective beliefs. how does an organization even determine whether a person's self-reported gender identity is sincere or not? my Ti is confounded.
    Since there are probably as many XX females that are mistaken for XY men (at least with clothes on), as trans females that use a given sports club bathroom, it sounds like they've chosen that statement as a more workable standard than taking blood samples and/or inspecting driver's licenses at the door (each of which has its own problem) or some other equally flawed solution.

    The statement of course goes on to note why she actually got kicked out:


    Still, when it comes down to self-identification, yeah, there's gonna be some kerfluffle in the United States (which has always drawn some sharp gendering lines) while all of this butts heads and works itself out. I expect us to be adding more unisex bathrooms over time, with more stalls, for one. (You'll see single-person bathrooms in some restaurants doing this now -- they'll have two unisex bathrooms rather than a male and female. But our old bathroom "infracture" was always very gender regimented.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #39
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixie sticks View Post
    i don't care much about people's gender identity, but i understand complaints that arise due to confusion, such as the recent situation in a gym locker room. Planet Fitness revoke's woman's membership after transgender complaint

    "Our gender identity nondiscrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity."

    i don't understand how objective standards can be enforced upon subjective beliefs. how does an organization even determine whether a person's self-reported gender identity is sincere or not? my Ti is confounded.
    I wasn't referring to trans in the op. but somehow it got misconstrued that i was, and that i hate them, none which is true. but yeah i wouldn't care if a dude used a woman's restroom like a dude in trucker hat and plaid peeing in a closed stall is not sexual to me. its not about trans my issue is the people who invent labels. I'm for equal rights and self expression but i feel like if you are inventing a gender label but you've never been ridiculed for how you dress or behave and claim to be oppressed that's where i have the issue. i'm against actual oppression and in an ideal world people could id as the gende kangaroo, but its not an ideal world. here's my impression of it: someone touches a hot stove then sues the stove for abusing them. that would be the people i'm refering to. a hot stove jumps out of the closet and attacks them. that would be the people who transition, who have actually been bullied because of their race, gender, or sexuality. the first thing is bs and takes away from actual issues. the second is legit
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  10. #40
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I wasn't referring to trans in the op. but somehow it got misconstrued that i was, and that i hate them, none which is true. but yeah i wouldn't care if a dude used a woman's restroom like a dude in trucker hat and plaid peeing in a closed stall is not sexual to me. its not about trans my issue is the people who invent labels. I'm for equal rights and self expression but i feel like if you are inventing a gender label but you've never been ridiculed for how you dress or behave and claim to be oppressed that's where i have the issue. i'm against actual oppression and in an ideal world people could id as the gende kangaroo, but its not an ideal world. here's my impression of it: someone touches a hot stove then sues the stove for abusing them. that would be the people i'm refering to. a hot stove jumps out of the closet and attacks them. that would be the people who transition, who have actually been bullied because of their race, gender, or sexuality. the first thing is bs and takes away from actual issues. the second is legit
    I can see this sort of thing as being a matter of safety more than anything else. I think Louis C.K. once said the number one cause of death and injury to women are men. As egalitarian as I try to be, this really can't be ignored.

    Otherwise, yeah, people can just learn to deal. I've hung out in places that have only unisex, multi-stalled, bathroom facilities. Or had gender separated ones where the ladies just weren't willing to wait in the ever present line in front of the women's room. It doesn't bother me when a girl pops in as I'm using the urinal, nor is it sexual. But this is learned. These things we get hung up on aren't necessarily natural human instincts, they're taught/learned reactions.
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