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  1. #71
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    I would think that the effort that is put into it is different qualitatively but not necessarily less sincere. Maybe it is more effortless because it does not demand nearly the same degree of social stroking.
    You mentioned people writing niceties in other people's blogs that you suspect is insincere fluffing. However, I think the internet demands less of that than IRL. In this way, IRL demands more effort, but is also more fake.
    Actually it seems like more social stroking, not less. What differentiates the forms of social stroking you think? It seems like you have to work harder on the internet to net the same benefits. Like if I'm talking to someone stubbing their toe on the bed that morning. I may smile sympathetically and tilt my head in a certain way and not say anything at all. That doesn't suffice here on the internet. Wordless communication is ineffective communication. Silence is usually taken as negative communication and that's magnified on the internet I think. You PM someone and they never respond. What do you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    I suppose that makes the net more convenient.
    The net is also convenient for the reason that it makes certain types of discourse easier that would be incredibly tough said face to face. I have seen people give honest assessments to near strangers when it was tough, but fair and sorely needed. I've thought that the assessment would not likely have been given if it were someone sitting next to them talking about their problems like that.
    Seems about half and half to me. But yes, that has happened

    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    The relationship of convenience part is that people will not be offended or feel neglected if you go AWOL for long stretches . . .It does not mean that you do not value what is there or that you are insincere when you are around.
    I think it's kind of inherent and implicit in relationships of convenience that the effort that it would usually take to maintain a relationship won't be given to this relationship. I think both parties are agreeing that they will only participate in the relationship when it suits their needs and when it no longer does it can be terminated. Neutrally, a convenience is something that makes something easier or is less labor intensive. I'm not saying people should toil in relationships and that they should be very hard but if I know the investment in the relationship can be rescinded whenever it does become too labor intensive or hard to maintain. So investing in discourse that's too hard IRL life is transitioned to the internet. So I'm just doing some googling and found this:

    Have we become so comfortable, or should I say anesthetized, in our current situations that we are not willing make the changes needed in our lives, communities, countries and planet, to make a better life or a better world? Are we stunting our spiritual and emotional well-being just because it's too inconvenient to begin to live our lifes purpose ? Have we filled our lives up with so much doing, that we are to sedated to consider just being?
    This is what strikes me as insincere/inauthentic about some transactions on the forum. It's the mere fact that it can be turned on and off . I'm not saying it can't transition but what makes it even more annoying is when people come to the forum complaining about this and then engage in it.

    Colemna, it's not you. You seem pretty honest about yourself and I appreciate that.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #72
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    I am offended. Crazy? Us? No...

    A little socially awkward, perhaps. A bit unorthodox in beliefs, perchance. A bit loose with metaphors and associations, ay, there's the rub!

    [See what I did there? The "perchance" triggered Hamlet's "perchance to dream. Ay, there's the rub!" so I brought up the loose associations (loose associations are processed during REM sleep) to get us there. Do you see? Eh? Eh?...Weird? Shut it!]

    Yeah, MBTIc doesn't have crazy people... just really really awesome people. Maybe even "special" people... You know, I don't think I'm helping so I'll just stop here.

  3. #73
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    sheesh...I'll be the first to admit that I am socially awkward, and I have not written myself off as totally sane. I do not think I'm above it all, I posted a thesis to either be ripped to shreds or proven as correct, not to offend. and also to get other people's opinions. I can not stress this enough: I DO NOT HAVE ANY SPECIFIC PERSON IN MIND!!!! and see the brackets around the c? yes those. know what those mean it means that I am talking about being attracted to this forum, but at the same time to MBTI in general. So take any personality forum and I would probably say the same thing there as here.

  4. #74
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I've been thinking about people and being crazy. I also wonder if someone is truly crazy, wouldn't they want to try and hide that when on a forum, since in real life if everyone he or she knew viewed him or her as crazy would get tiring. I mean wouldn't someone like that might want a break? sorry this is probably not coherent I'm still on my first cup of coffee.
    No I know what you mean. I once met a woman who I got to know online - online she seemed to be the most sweet, kind, gentle thing that wouldn't harm a soul. To hear her talk you'd have thought she was some martyr that put up with rubbish from everyone because she was so empathic and caring.

    In reality, it turned out she was bone fucking idle, made a mess all the time in her house and never cleaned up after herself or pulled her weight either with work or bills, which drove her housemates crazy and made them often yell at her. She spent most of her time in her room on the internet 'caring' about people she never met, but in RL she was a total basket case. She'd say the most rude and hurtful things to people and then burst into tears and storm off, then she'd come back later as though nothing happened. If you tried to get an explanation out of her she'd say she didn't want to talk about it and she'd got through it in her head now and it was 'over', yet she'd left the other person spinning, confused and frightened and didn't think she even owed them an explanation as to why she exploded at them just cos they asked her if she wanted milk in her coffee or something similarly mundane.

    But by the same token, I've met quite a lot of people off the internet and most of them have turned out to be just as they were online.

    As for my motivations... well, primarily if I meet people online then I do really want to make RL friends of them. I don't really get that much satisfaction out of friendships that stay online, where the other person won't meet up. I can understand it if a) they live very far away or b) we haven't known each other long online. But when they live fairly close by me and we've been chatting and stuff for months, I can't understand why they sometimes still won't meet up for coffee or lunch or whatever, even bring a friend or whatever if they need to, but why just keep refusing? I can imagine several reasons why they might, but I feel quite impatient all the same and frustrated that the friendship has to be limited this way.

    I'm never against meeting up with people in RL that I meet online, if the distance is realistic then I'm happy to do it ASAP. So part of the motive for me is to make real friends.

    talking about commitment levels being questionable because of the ease of 'switching off' from internet friends... well. It's not as if there's anything stopping people switching off from RL friends either is it? I've been cut dead by a couple in my time, and I've cut a few dead myself in RL. I know it happens all the time, that people feel they've been pushed too far or whatever by someone in RL and they feel they've had enough, or even people just think you're too boring or whatever, and they start ignoring your calls, pretending to be out when you visit, blanking you basically.

    The commitment in RL comes where even though you have the option of cutting the person off, you choose not to. Online, if I've given you my e-mail address and chat nickname or whatever, my personal home address and phone number so you can write and phone, then it's no different than in RL - I choose not to cut you off, I choose not to change my e-mail address or block you from my MSN, even though sometimes we might disagree or whatever.

    There are some online friends I have who live just too far away for me to meet them face to face, but that doesn't mean I don't still wish I could, and sincerely want to. And if I'm ever in their part of the world then I will, and sometimes I'll even go there just to meet them, depending again on what sort of expense we're talking about here.

    Where I have to accept, like on this forum, that I'm never going to meet most of the people, then that still doesn't mean I don't sincerely feel some kind of bond with some of them. Again that's no different than being in any RL community. You can go to a church, say, for years, where 200 people go every Sunday, but it's rare I'd say that anyone would genuinely feel attached and bonded with all 200. You have your friends you bond with and then the rest that you kinda care about but wouldn't miss too much if they went to another church.

    I don't think there's any particular pattern so to speak, to be able to say "people online do this or that which people in RL don't do" or "people online do this because of XYZ" or whatever. i think the quality of relationship and behaviour and stuff online is completely dependent on the individuals, just like in RL.

    I try to be there as much as I can for my online friends and don't prioritize my RL friends over them. They're all real people and deserve to be treated accordingly. If an online friend e-mails me and it's something even vaguely important I'll respond straight away, and I've often prioritized it over RL tasks. I've made a RL friend sit and wait while I answered an e-mail from an online friend because the RL friend and I were just talking about football whilst the online friend is asking for help with something. If they're on a tricky time zone then I schedule times when we can chat still or phone each other, always preferring to phone if possible. I send them postcards when I go on vacation or little gifts that just remind me of them. I am JUST as committed and sincere in online friendships as I am in RL, which is very much so.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #75
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    The majority of INTP's just want to be left alone so when faced with aggression they usually back down. When this is done to them enough times they become frustrated and hit back passive aggressively.
    I could see this happening. I tend to just flood with big words, and sometimes silence can be the most brutal passive-aggression (ie. you're not worth talking to). Fortunately, I wouldn't have thought most INTPs would put themselves in a position where they can be attacked. 'though I'd say it's all very different online.
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    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
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    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
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    -Yes, my dear.

  6. #76
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    No I know what you mean. I once met a woman who I got to know online - online she seemed to be the most sweet, kind, gentle thing that wouldn't harm a soul. To hear her talk you'd have thought she was some martyr that put up with rubbish from everyone because she was so empathic and caring.

    In reality, it turned out she was bone fucking idle, made a mess all the time in her house and never cleaned up after herself or pulled her weight either with work or bills, which drove her housemates crazy and made them often yell at her. She spent most of her time in her room on the internet 'caring' about people she never met, but in RL she was a total basket case. She'd say the most rude and hurtful things to people and then burst into tears and storm off, then she'd come back later as though nothing happened. If you tried to get an explanation out of her she'd say she didn't want to talk about it and she'd got through it in her head now and it was 'over', yet she'd left the other person spinning, confused and frightened and didn't think she even owed them an explanation as to why she exploded at them just cos they asked her if she wanted milk in her coffee or something similarly mundane.

    But by the same token, I've met quite a lot of people off the internet and most of them have turned out to be just as they were online.

    As for my motivations... well, primarily if I meet people online then I do really want to make RL friends of them. I don't really get that much satisfaction out of friendships that stay online, where the other person won't meet up. I can understand it if a) they live very far away or b) we haven't known each other long online. But when they live fairly close by me and we've been chatting and stuff for months, I can't understand why they sometimes still won't meet up for coffee or lunch or whatever, even bring a friend or whatever if they need to, but why just keep refusing? I can imagine several reasons why they might, but I feel quite impatient all the same and frustrated that the friendship has to be limited this way.

    I'm never against meeting up with people in RL that I meet online, if the distance is realistic then I'm happy to do it ASAP. So part of the motive for me is to make real friends.

    talking about commitment levels being questionable because of the ease of 'switching off' from internet friends... well. It's not as if there's anything stopping people switching off from RL friends either is it? I've been cut dead by a couple in my time, and I've cut a few dead myself in RL. I know it happens all the time, that people feel they've been pushed too far or whatever by someone in RL and they feel they've had enough, or even people just think you're too boring or whatever, and they start ignoring your calls, pretending to be out when you visit, blanking you basically.

    The commitment in RL comes where even though you have the option of cutting the person off, you choose not to. Online, if I've given you my e-mail address and chat nickname or whatever, my personal home address and phone number so you can write and phone, then it's no different than in RL - I choose not to cut you off, I choose not to change my e-mail address or block you from my MSN, even though sometimes we might disagree or whatever.

    There are some online friends I have who live just too far away for me to meet them face to face, but that doesn't mean I don't still wish I could, and sincerely want to. And if I'm ever in their part of the world then I will, and sometimes I'll even go there just to meet them, depending again on what sort of expense we're talking about here.

    Where I have to accept, like on this forum, that I'm never going to meet most of the people, then that still doesn't mean I don't sincerely feel some kind of bond with some of them. Again that's no different than being in any RL community. You can go to a church, say, for years, where 200 people go every Sunday, but it's rare I'd say that anyone would genuinely feel attached and bonded with all 200. You have your friends you bond with and then the rest that you kinda care about but wouldn't miss too much if they went to another church.

    I don't think there's any particular pattern so to speak, to be able to say "people online do this or that which people in RL don't do" or "people online do this because of XYZ" or whatever. i think the quality of relationship and behaviour and stuff online is completely dependent on the individuals, just like in RL.

    I try to be there as much as I can for my online friends and don't prioritize my RL friends over them. They're all real people and deserve to be treated accordingly. If an online friend e-mails me and it's something even vaguely important I'll respond straight away, and I've often prioritized it over RL tasks. I've made a RL friend sit and wait while I answered an e-mail from an online friend because the RL friend and I were just talking about football whilst the online friend is asking for help with something. If they're on a tricky time zone then I schedule times when we can chat still or phone each other, always preferring to phone if possible. I send them postcards when I go on vacation or little gifts that just remind me of them. I am JUST as committed and sincere in online friendships as I am in RL, which is very much so.
    I've met people in real life from a forum, and I don't really consider people I talk to online as friends, but rather potential friends. And after I've met them sometimes we have become friends, other times it didn't work out. I'm saying that I'm pretty willing to meet people from the internet, and give them a chance. Even if I didn't particularly like them on the forum, like you said you can't really know a person and you might like them in real life. At the same time if I talk to you every day in class but we don't hang outside of class, you would not be a friend, but a potential friend. But yeah distance is often a big factor, I made a friend from England, but I was going to be over their anyways. It wasn't like i just went their to meet her.

  7. #77
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think the 'potential friend' way too, but to me once we've chatted on the phone a few times and exchanged a load of messages and stuff, it's usually fairly obvious whether we gel or not.

    Actually I've never phoned Jennifer and only recently got her home address but I genuinely think of her as a friend that I care about deeply and think of often, for example.

    I dunno... I don't see why circumstances preventing people from fulfilling typical social requirements of friendships necessarily invalidates them. Cos there are a whole lot of people whose requirements or preferences, I mean whose idea or expectations of a friendship are very different from those that are socially considered normal or whatever, and they have RL friendships that are maintained the way they're happy with. It's frustrated me a lot in the past when my mom's accused me of 'hurting' friends of mine because I've not done what she thinks I should've done or said, even though what I did do was perfectly consistent with the pattern of that friendship and moreover, what I knew that friend in particular wants and enjoys.

    A lot of the 'niceties' that are required in making (not maintaining) RL friendships, which usually begin within larger groups where social behaviour has to be more conforming/conservative, are not necessary online. And it's just those sorts of niceties that NTP's and perhaps others don't particularly value, and which might even get in the way of making, maintaining and deepening friendships. Leading perhaps to the friendships made online being in fact more satisfying and sincere for them.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #78
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Actually it seems like more social stroking, not less. What differentiates the forms of social stroking you think?
    Really? From where I sit, I definitely have more demands for social stroking IRL than on the net. Now that I think about it, maybe it is just that I do not recognize the demands of net social stroking, even if they are there. Is the difference that I can afford not to recognize the demands on the net? Perhaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Like if I'm talking to someone stubbing their toe on the bed that morning. I may smile sympathetically and tilt my head in a certain way and not say anything at all. That doesn't suffice here on the internet. Wordless communication is ineffective communication.
    But there is an abundance of smilies with actions that i may engage in more often than I do IRL, and that may be clearer because of standardized net usage. I find that misunderstandings get cleared up much more quickly (for better or worse) with other net personas than with some people IRL.
    If I PM someone and they don't respond and the nature of the PM demanded a response . . . well, I know for sure they are ignoring me. Or something is going on with them. But unless we had developed a friendship it does not feel the same as if someone IRL did the same thing. I'm not sure what you mean with this though because wordless communication can be very ineffective IRL.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Seems about half and half to me. But yes, that has happened
    And isn't it refreshing?

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This is what strikes me as insincere/inauthentic about some transactions on the forum. It's the mere fact that it can be turned on and off . I'm not saying it can't transition but what makes it even more annoying is when people come to the forum complaining about this and then engage in it.
    I do not consider anything inauthentic if it does not chiefly consist of lies and deception. It is a different animal, though. I guess it depends on your expectations. What do you hope to get out of the interaction? I do not go online expecting to form friendships like IRL. It is possible to transition from one to the other, but this would require assuming the roles and expectations.


    Colemna, it's not you. You seem pretty honest about yourself and I appreciate that.
    Hmm . . . see that is another expectation I do not have and do not feel cheated if I am denied it: that people are honest about themselves. Heck, people are not honest about themselves IRL either. The world is populated by people who bare themselves and people who do not. And those who appear to bare themselves while they do not. It keeps things interesting.

    edit: and some do not have a true self to be honest about.
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  9. #79
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Eh, "crazy" is dismissive. I wouldn't label myself crazy, nor would I label anyone else here crazy.

  10. #80
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    For me it is not just about convenience. I used to post regularly, regardless of how I was feeling. On my bad days because I tend to be irritable, argumentive, easily offended - not to mention I wasn't adding anything productive to any internet conversations. After some rocky patches, including accidently driving an emotionally sensitve person away from a group, I realized it was better for everyone if I didn't post anything on my bad days.

    I also try to avoid real life interaction on those days as well. Some people are more understanding than others.

    On some of my groups I have actually explained this to people up front - "If I don't write for a while that means I am having some stressful times. I will be back latter."

    Actually quitting a group I am very active with is not something I do lightly. I would tend to break it off for the same reasons I would a real life relationship. One group I left because any one that held different views than the moderator was treated poorly (it didn't start out that way). One group I left because the atmosphere was very negative. One group I tried hard to fit in but it became apparent that everyone in the group help the same values, ideals, relious views - except me.

    Ilah

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