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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I see your point, but can any human truly live without expectation of any kind? Surely reality is what you make it?
    We always have expectations, but if you are a realist, then you are essentially being honest with yourself about what your expectations are.

    Again, optimists and pessimists by definition are pretending their expectations are reality.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    We always have expectations, but if you are a realist, then you are essentially being honest with yourself about what your expectations are.

    Again, optimists and pessimists by definition are pretending their expectations are reality.
    Could pessimism and optimism be considered perversions of realism then? Like a spectrum? If you are being honest about your expectations...I don't understand how that is different from pessimism and optimism, do optimists and pessimists lie about their expectations? I don't think i've seen a pessimist claiming to believe the best. The issue of pretending their expectations are reality...but isn't a realist doing that as well?

    I just don't see realism as floating about separately from those two, more a balancing effect between them.

    I guess I just haven't reached that particular branch of enlightenment yet. I probably never will, I don't understand it. In the moment I guess. In MBTI terms it could be an issue with me being SJ and struggling to lighten my expectations of what has been before....of precedents. Even though it is more reasonable to assess something as it comes in order to understand it on it's own merit. I grew up in a strong environment of expectation so that has probably coloured a lot of my perceptions in this area. In my reality, consistent failure only weakens advances towards success, rather than picking oneself up you dig a bigger hole. Although I'm not very emotionally healthy so that probably isn't something to get into at the moment.

    Baaaaad rigidity.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.
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  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Could pessimism and optimism be considered perversions of realism then? Like a spectrum? If you are being honest about your expectations...I don't understand how that is different from pessimism and optimism, do optimists and pessimists lie about their expectations? I don't think i've seen a pessimist claiming to believe the best. The issue of pretending their expectations are reality...but isn't a realist doing that as well?
    Not as I defined all three of them. But maybe you have different definitions. That's another problem in this type of discussion.

    I just don't see realism as floating about separately from those two, more a balancing effect between them.
    What, like the ego balances the concerns of the id and superego? I guess you could look at it somewhat like that. The ego itself is really the "mediation" that occurs rather than a drive in itself, it's a balancing force.

    I guess I just haven't reached that particular branch of enlightenment yet. I probably never will, I don't understand it. In the moment I guess. In MBTI terms it could be an issue with me being SJ and struggling to lighten my expectations of what has been before....of precedents. Even though it is more reasonable to assess something as it comes in order to understand it on it's own merit. I grew up in a strong environment of expectation so that has probably coloured a lot of my perceptions in this area. In my reality, consistent failure only weakens advances towards success, rather than picking oneself up you dig a bigger hole. Although I'm not very emotionally healthy so that probably isn't something to get into at the moment. Baaaaad rigidity.
    I never really knew what type you were (I don't look at types much nowadays), but yeah, I know for me a lot of INTPs gravitate towards detachment/balance by nature... I tend to see all expectation as arbitrary and suspect in some way, especially accepting that everyone has free will and can choose at any moment to not fulfill another's expectations "just because."

    That creates other issues for me of course (with motivation, for example, and relationship), but here I just tend to see a "WYSIWYG" and go with it. I was also raised in an environment where even if I did have emotional expectations, they weren't necessarily met often; I couldn't count on them being met; so I kind of ended up in that gray area... not everything goes wrong all the time, but not everything goes right either. It was safest to test something and understand exactly what it was (the good and the bad) -- to have a sense of its "probability" rather than "possibility" -- and then rely on it just appropriately. That way I maximize what good can come while being most protected against the bad.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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  4. #14
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danseen View Post
    lololol....most have not heard of MBTI in the real world...

    i think you take it waaaay too seriously, it's a theory, little more.
    Mbti is not just a theory, it is also a practice.

    Mbti pretends to be a theory of psychometrics, but unlike legitimate psychometrics, mbti is based on no empirical evidence, and over 75 years there has not been one random double blind experiment.

    And a legitmate psychometric test is invalidated if it is performed on oneself. And a legitimate psychometric test is invalidated if we interpret our own psychometric test.

    Also a psychometric interpretation applied to our family, our friends, celebrities, and pets, is completely invalid if no actual test has been applied.

    Mbti is based on narcissistic fantasy quite like astrology. Astrology is a successful cult and so is mbti.

    And consider, mbti flies under a false flag called Typology Central. Our original name is MBTI Central, but we changed it for business reasons.

    In the USA religion and money go hand in hand, and this is also true of mbti.

  5. #15
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Just wondering, @Mole: why do you single out the US so frequently? It's not like it's the only country with delusional, narcissistic people in it. And it's not the only country that places importance on religion, astrology, MBTI, or any other "dubious" institution, either.

    To be clear, I'm not asking because I'm trying to rile you up. I'm asking out of sincere curiosity. Goodness knows I'm not defending the US; in fact, I find the whole concept of patriotism kind of ridiculous, considering the fact that none of us have any control over where we're born. But it's definitely not the worst place to live.

  6. #16
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    Haha. The US. I think it's a hilarious place I live in. People are so introverted here, but it is an extroverted society. Seems like everything anyone does is awkward except for working. That could be me making it awkward though.

    I'm now thinking I am the optimist. It is because of my one assumption, that all things most likely happen for a reason. But then again, I do realize myself as having this bias for a legitimate reason in that the contrary would make everything I do have no point, so yeah. Doubt resolved.

  7. #17
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The National Interests of Oz and USA

    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    Just wondering, @Mole: why do you single out the US so frequently? It's not like it's the only country with delusional, narcissistic people in it. And it's not the only country that places importance on religion, astrology, MBTI, or any other "dubious" institution, either.

    To be clear, I'm not asking because I'm trying to rile you up. I'm asking out of sincere curiosity. Goodness knows I'm not defending the US; in fact, I find the whole concept of patriotism kind of ridiculous, considering the fact that none of us have any control over where we're born. But it's definitely not the worst place to live.
    We have not one but three treaties with the USA. The USA has a policy of wheel and spokes treaties with many countries in the world. In other words the USA has individual treaties with many countries in order to remain the 'big wheel'.

    By contrast Australia, through the WTO (World Trade Organisation), seeks multi-lateral treaties with many countries in order to trade on a level playing field.

    So it is plain the trade interests of the USA and Australia diverge.

    And just as our trade interests diverge so our cultural interests diverge.

    So we pursue our trade and cultural interests in the face of the largest economy in the world, the largest military, and the best propaganda.

    Where the interests of the USA and Australia converge is National Security. We are at one with the USA in terms of National Security.

    @BadOctopus

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