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  1. #1
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Default The Transgender Con? Many “Transgender” People Regret Switch

    The Transgender Con? Many “Transgender” People Regret Switch

    Transsexualism was invented by psychiatrists.… You fundamentally can’t change sex.... The surgery doesn’t alter you genetically. It’s genital mutilation. My "vagina" was just the bag of my scrotum. It’s like a pouch, like a kangaroo. What’s scary is you still feel like you have a penis when you’re sexually aroused. It’s like phantom limb syndrome. It’s all been a terrible misadventure. I’ve never been a woman, just Alan.
    There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

    The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham's aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.
    Cloete says that Ryland’s parents “learnt about a higher suicide/suicide attempt rate among transgender people” and don’t want to lose their child, indicating they’re unaware that “the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people,” as CNS News reported in August. They also are unlikely to know that 70 to 80 percent of children with their daughter’s feelings spontaneously lose them.
    I'm all for self-discovery and finding happiness, but what if these transgendered individuals have been mind-screwed by the psychiatric profession and it's just a phase they're going through. I support efforts, even surgical ones, to remedy psychological trauma, but the evidence suggests that surgery doesn't help many if not most of them. Are these people aware that others who have this surgery aren't helped by it and have they been counseled before getting the surgery?
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  2. #2
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm all for self-discovery and finding happiness, but what if these transgendered individuals have been mind-screwed by the psychiatric profession and it's just a phase they're going through. I support efforts, even surgical ones, to remedy psychological trauma, but the evidence suggests that surgery doesn't help many if not most of them. Are these people aware that others who have this surgery aren't helped by it and have they been counseled before getting the surgery?
    I can't respect the source at all. The New American is insanely bias. Nevertheless, I read the article. Where to start...


    Transsexualism was invented by psychiatrists.… You fundamentally can’t change sex...
    Ignorance and bad wording.

    Transsexualism was not invented by psychiatrists. If you want to say that, then you would need to say that for the vast majority of many psychological disorders. Though I get the sense you don't trust or respect modern psychology at all, which quite frankly is absolutely ridiculous if that is the case. Transsexualism is a label given to identify a psychological phenomenon that is quantifiably observable.

    In the context of the article the statement of "you can't change sex" is a discussion of semantics and is a distraction. Of course you cant change sex. That said, we're not really speaking about sex, we're speaking about gender. The semantical difference between sex and gender is extremely important in transsexual discussions. Sex is defined as what you are biologically. I.E. do you have an XX, or XY chromosomes. Gender is what the individual feels they are. Do they feel they are a sex-male, or sex-female. Transsexualism is defined as a disparity between the two. Reassignment therapy is when an individual receives something to help them appear or feel as close to a cis (same) match up between their sex and gender. Cosmetic it might be, it can have a profound effect on the livelyhood on the individual who receives it. Since you like anecdotal and personal references so much, I strongly recommend you speak to transgender individuals on these matters such as @Jennifer. They are the ones who can educate you (and the rest of us as well; I am still somewhat poor on the semantical differences between the terms) on this. A huge portion of the public really isn't aware of what goes on with it.

    It's one of the core issues I take with the article actually. Those who are being quoted and the writer clearly are not informed on transgender and transsexual issues (and the very unfortunate politics that comes with it) and really have little to no authority to speak of it.


    It’s genital mutilation. My "vagina" was just the bag of my scrotum. It’s like a pouch, like a kangaroo. What’s scary is you still feel like you have a penis when you’re sexually aroused. It’s like phantom limb syndrome. It’s all been a terrible misadventure. I’ve never been a woman, just Alan.
    Saying it's genital mutilation is really insensitive. It's suggesting demonizing anyone who goes through the process. It really really shows the lack of understanding on these matters. There is going to be risks involved with reassignment surgery, just like any cosmetic surgery. Some individuals are not going to possess the correct self-awareness required to determine how they will respond to the surgery. Doctors, psychiatrists, and psychologists will work as hard as they can to determine if the individuals are of sound mind for the transformation. It's not perfect though. Further, it's very much worth saying that not all transsexuals or transgender individuals choose to have surgery.


    There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.
    First of all, that study that is being referenced is from 2004. There is new research (and more in general) that does not show such dire consequences. With that said, there is still a higher mortality rate due to suicide amongst transgender populations compared to the rest of population, with statistically minimal changes between pre and post op individuals. What does this tell us? Pretty much nothing (unfortunately). This is one of the BIGGEST HUGEST PROBLEMS (that drives me and many other researchers INSANE) is that people start drawing all kinds of really improper conclusions from research and it gets completely skewed. This little infographic illustrates this well, and it sadly happens all the time. It's such a big issue that papers very often say "we can not draw any conclusions from this study". Yet, people who don't even have the credentials to do so try anyway. The individuals who should speculate are the academics involved in the field, not they layman.


    Cloete says that Ryland’s parents “learnt about a higher suicide/suicide attempt rate among transgender people” and don’t want to lose their child, indicating they’re unaware that “the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people,” as CNS News reported in August. They also are unlikely to know that 70 to 80 percent of children with their daughter’s feelings spontaneously lose them.
    So this is actually useless information. Why? They are comparing suicide rates between transgender post-op to normal population. If you want to see a change in efficacy you need to compare this between pre and post op individuals, not as they stated.

    The majority of the article cites flimsy sources most of the time, is written with a bias and ignorant attitude. Also, after looking at some of the other things he's written, the Author of this article seems to me to be just downright crazy, illogical, panic driven, and completely out of touch.


    Have they been counseled before getting the surgery?
    Yes.
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  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm all for self-discovery and finding happiness, but what if these transgendered individuals have been mind-screwed by the psychiatric profession and it's just a phase they're going through. I support efforts, even surgical ones, to remedy psychological trauma, but the evidence suggests that surgery doesn't help many if not most of them. Are these people aware that others who have this surgery aren't helped by it and have they been counseled before getting the surgery?
    I got a whiff of the New American article a day or two ago. Aside from the huge bias in the source and the increasing attack on transpeople now because they get far more exposure in the news and with gender protection laws, it doesn't seem to mesh with actual surveys of surgery satisfaction, which is far far higher than satisfaction with some basic surgeries that the average people can get. There's also an incredible amount of screening that goes into this process, which some people bitch about but in the end is for the best. The few people I've seen publicized in the Daily News and similar rags seem to be the sort that had some kind of crisis, circumvented the system because they had the money or resources (rushing into it), then regretted it and refused to accept the blame for their mistake.

    For my personal experience with the community, in the last seven years, I've seen only one person who was unhappy enough to decide she'd rather live as a woman who still had her penis, and she never blamed the doctors or seemed to be 'imbalanced' about it. She made the best decision she could at the time, and sadly she realized after some years that she made a mistake, despite being properly screened. (note that she doesn't want to be a man; she just realized she was happy living as a woman while retaining her male anatomy.) Otherwise I know tens to hundreds of people whose lives were changed for the better through transition, to whatever degree they needed.

    For myself, I've never ever regretted it. For someone who doubts everything in her life (strong P), this is the one thing I've ever been most certain about, before and after. I experienced a lot of misery from childhood on, for a few decades, and tried many many things both in the secular and the religious world. My situation (as for many) existed long before gender psychologists became involved.

    I do think proper screening and taking the process in a thoughtful rather than rushed way is paramount... but this is what reputable doctors insist on anyway. It's only been the last few years when politics got (somewhat) out of the way and they started letting medical doctors actually determine whether someone could legally change their gender and how they were being treated, and where we are finally looking for some kind of insurance coverage based on medical assessment versus just being excluded and having to pay out of pocket.

    Edit: I'll post more later about the individuals mentioned in this article; I know who some of them are, especially Mike Penner / Christine Daniels.
    Last edited by Bellflower; 11-16-2014 at 03:08 PM.
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    My aunt is transgender (born male) and had the reassignment surgery very late in life, after about 3 marriages and several biological children. She is happy although admittedly I never really understood the issue. I don't think it is right to state that no-one ever feels better after reassignment surgery or that it is necessarily a phase people will always grow out of.
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  5. #5
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    If you want to see a change in efficacy you need to compare this between pre and post op individuals, not as they stated.
    Yes, I thought of this as well. I don't suppose someone has that statistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    Since you like anecdotal and personal references so much, I strongly recommend you speak to transgender individuals on these matters such as ****.
    I hope you got permission first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Aside from the huge bias in the source and the increasing attack on transpeople now because they get far more exposure in the news and with gender protection laws, it doesn't seem to mesh with actual surveys of surgery satisfaction, which is far far higher than satisfaction with some basic surgeries that the average people can get.
    I'm not familiar with New American. When I read articles, I'm primarily looking for statistics, facts, and anecdotal evidence. My interest in this topic is in the success of the operation. Do people who've undergone gender reassignment surgery lead happier, more fulfilling lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Otherwise I know tens to hundreds of people whose lives were changed for the better through transition, to whatever degree they needed.
    This is great news. I assume that the change is lasting or at least lasting more than a year or two? Also, thanks for sharing.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm not familiar with New American. When I read articles, I'm primarily looking for statistics, facts, and anecdotal evidence. My interest in this topic is in the success of the operation. Do people who've undergone gender reassignment surgery lead happier, more fulfilling lives?
    It's late and I'm out all day tomorrow with my kids, so I won't really get a good look at the article until later, if I decide to commit some time to it. I'm sure I posted some stats in one of my blogs at some point.

    But to be perfectly frank, while I need to look at their sources, my understanding of the data has been different... and typically the only reason anyone feels suicidal after treatment is because of viewpoints like calling it "genital mutilation," which basically presents such people as frauds and contributes to social prejudice against transpeople and leads to forms of rejection / exclusion. You can finally feel right with your own body, yet if you're going to be ostracized by family, friends, and faith; refused employment and/or housing; and treated as undateable/undesirable if people know you're trans... those are the emotional stressors that typically lead to unhappiness, not necessarily the treatment.

    I remember McHugh doing a hatchet job on the data even around 2005, he was using data from the 70's and also misinterpreting it. Things have been significantly different when they crunch data from the 90's onwards.

    This is great news. I assume that the change is lasting or at least lasting more than a year or two? Also, thanks for sharing.
    It depends on the country, and legal identification depends on the particular state in the US although things are becoming more standardized. Typically you are expected to be in therapy at least a year, and your psychiatrist works with an endocrinologist and/or medical physician if they decide that you are a candidate for any form of hormone treatment. For any kind of surgery, reputable surgeons (i.e., ones that don't want to lose their license) expect at least one letter from a PhD psychiatrist (therapists do not count), and sometimes ask for two opinions. This is not just US surgeons but other countries. I've seen them tighten up on that in the last five years, even while it seems easier to get your legal ID changed earlier in the process.

    Typically they also expect you to have been living as the target gender for at least a year, to make sure that it's what is for the best. Before the 90's, they used to make you do this without hormonal treatment, which made the Real Life Test (RLT) very difficult as you would still look like a member of your original gender, and that reality alone contributed to a lot of dissatisfaction because you were essentially socially ostracized and had no chance to fit in; nowadays, although hormones are not a toy, under careful supervision they allow hormones to come into play earlier, which greatly eases the transition when someone finally does start living as the gender they identify with.
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  7. #7
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    The article is using people that were confused about their gender identification and transitioned only to regret it as a base to judge that transgender is fictitious. I'd say there is a difference between knowing you are the other gender and being confused about your own; all the problems concluded in the article apply to the latter and aren't typically present in transsexuals. Though I suppose the article assumes there is no difference between the two or implicitly denies the separation. Kind of crappy article; seems meant to stir shit or fuel propaganda.
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    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    as long as others give a shit about how you live or what you do that is not in line with traditional society articles like this will continue to exist. @Jennifer being trans doesn't affect me at all, it just doesn't nor does it affect anyone on this forum. if you like to pet circus bears and get off sexually with it, that's weird way weirder than transgenderism (which isn't even weird to begin with) as long as you don't try to have sex with them it shouldn't matter to any one
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  9. #9
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    This is another determination of, 'Oh, it doesn't work for some people, so why should we let everyone do it?'

    If we treated cancer in this manner, we'd be fear mongering people into dying. Transgenderism is a real thing.. and having that as just a phase for whatever reason (religious repression not allowing one to properly experiment and repress feelings, confusion, parents being jerks and ignoring the male/female balance in people and forcing kids to suppress emotions and girly stuff in favor for beating up people, talking to someone who is transgender and thinking maybe that's what you have too because it sounds similar, thinking you need to be the opposite gender to be attracted to your own, hormone imbalances, etcetc..) is a real thing too. But if it's 'just a phase' then it's not transgender. It's a confusion stemming from like any number of things. And screening will hopefully weed people out.

    Are there people that rush things? Yes. Are there people that convince themselves they are transgender, only to realize once it's all said and done that it didn't solve their real problem because they WANTED to blame gender identification issues so much? Sure. Are there people that just don't realize they had a connection with their own body, and thought they mutilated it after they had surgery despite being transgender? Absolutely. Are those people in such a ridiculous minority that there's pretty much nothing you can do because you can't save everyone in the world? Pretty much.

    Depression haunts transgenders. For good reason. You never quite feel like yourself. You feel like you're inside of a shell that doesn't quite fit. No one treats you as you deserve to be treated -- like a human first. It takes a lot of ridicule, and ridiculous accusations, and media attention, and swimming through all of it socially your whole life to finally meet people that respect, understand, and support you. And that's if you're a good person. I'm sure there are transgenders that are also jerks and assholes so they never meet good people to support them. Now a days it's easier than ever to find support. But depression is a beast you have to wrangle with no matter what. It takes of a lot of self awareness and concrete steps to ward it off. It's easy to let society bog you down. Easier to conform--which causes depression and regret.


    If you're depressed, you're prone to suicide, whether you had surgery or not.
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  10. #10
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

    This study looks interesting in that it follows every transsexual person who've undergone the gender reassignment procedure in Sweden from 1973 to 2003.

    The most striking result was the high mortality rate in both male-to-females and female-to males, compared to the general population.
    Mortality due to cardiovascular disease was significantly increased among sex reassigned individuals, albeit these results should be interpreted with caution due to the low number of events.
    There might be other explanations to increased cardiovascular death and malignancies. Smoking was in one study reported in almost 50% by the male-to females and almost 20% by female-to-males.[9] It is also possible that transsexual persons avoid the health care system due to a presumed risk of being discriminated.
    In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.[39], [40] This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.
    So we still don't know the suicide rates of those who haven't undergone surgery. I'll keep looking.
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