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  1. #31
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    Jul 2014


    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    Someone in my immediate family is trans, and so I did the obvious thought-experiment: how would I react if I'd been born and raised as a girl? And basically, I wouldn't be much different, and I wouldn't be bothered by it. I'll never get trans people in a visceral, that-could-have-been-me kind of way, any more than I'll ever get people who like the color yellow. I don't think that's necessary, though. Understanding that they have the reactions that they do ought to be enough.
    Exactly, in which I mean the visceral exactly in that I could have said every single word of that post except for replacing family member with friends and replace the positions of blue with red. More importantly, I believe that to be willing to acknowledge the limits of your empathy is critical for the emotional development of competent sympathy.

    It is when people can not acknowledge that there are some experiences and forms of suffering that do not fit within their own realm of experience, that people attempt to devalue the suffering of others in order to make it fit with whatever the closest thing they are able to recognize (Such as comparing the cognitive dissonance trans feel with their body to body image issues like weight), or worst, determine that the claim of suffering is somehow illegitimate or outright fake (Such as some of the statements made in the article).

    I do think it's more comparable to empathy vs. sympathy though, since I can't really say I understand it on an intellectual level: I know and acknowledge that is there, I acknowledge the emotional pains it causes, but I don't really understand the process behind it.

    I've done a rudimentary search awhile back to read about it, but the explanations provide justification rather then explanation, social justice narrative rather then insight into the psychology of the process (Maybe for some that is enough, but my brain doesn't work that way - I can't shift to understand something just because understanding it is the moral thing to do).
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  2. #32
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Jun 2007


    if there's so much shit that blocks people from transistion and you have to go through so many hoops and even then can still not be allowed, is it still a con?
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  3. #33
    literally your mother PocketFullOf's Avatar
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    Oct 2014


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh f*k... you had to bring Brennan into this? Lol.

    Oh, good, you covered that one.
    Yeah, it's not as overtly...crazy, but the deliberate misinformation for the purpose of delegitimizing something is pretty bad. Since they don't go as far as to purposefully misgender people or bully them I suppose you are right.

    Taking a concept to it's logical end is rarely logical or relevant to the subject at hand.
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  4. #34
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Focusing just on this part, this ties into the stress and 'damage' that occurs from the act of the transition -- reverberations -- even if you finally feel at peace within your own body. That part (incongruence with self) has been corrected; but if family, friends, and/or your former support groups (like church) have rejected you and want nothing more to do with you, now you can experience a bunch of issues stemming around acceptance, shame, abandonment, etc., and you've lost all the people you normally leaned on to get through such experiences. this is why psych issues and suicidal tendencies can exist beyond transition, even if the process did the job it was supposed to in terms of body and identity congruence.

    (I know you get that, due to your experience with JW; when someone leaves a religious group, they can feel like they did the right thing, but the resultant rejection/shaming by those who had a certain place in one's life can still be devastating, and you have to develop a new support group. This forum, for me, was my support group when I went through this experience; I don't know what I would have done without many of the people here at the time.)
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  5. #35
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    Is this article trying to provoke the idea that public funds are going to be "wasted" on gender reassignment? When their idea is that the money could be better used elsewhere? I'm always pro R&D and what these statements does is their lack of understanding of how it actually creates jobs and promotes a better future for all. meh

  6. #36


    There's a serious Catch 22 in anything like this, I dont believe it is restricted to the transgendered scene but perhaps it is a pretty good example because the changes involved are not simply beliefs, preferences for behaviour and behaviour but tangible physical changes.

    The Catch is that anyone highlighting anything which threatens to undermine core tenets is going to be treated with hostility or, at best, serious skepticism.

    Whether its proffering an opinion or an attempt performing much more sound research to provide proofs.

    The only source which will be entertained will be one which emerges from the scene or community themselves, even then it may be dismissed as "self-hating" or marginalised as anomalous and unrepresentative. That's if it ever gets that length because there's major factors militating against it.

  7. #37


    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    Is this article trying to provoke the idea that public funds are going to be "wasted" on gender reassignment? When their idea is that the money could be better used elsewhere? I'm always pro R&D and what these statements does is their lack of understanding of how it actually creates jobs and promotes a better future for all. meh
    I'd like to believe that but I think its optimistic.

    I was with a group of women in a club one time when one post-op and two pre-op transgendered men got into a battle with them, now the woman they principally choose to challenge was pretty hard and decked the ring leader.

    So far, so meaningless anecdote which has nothing to do with anything, but that one of the pre-op transgendered men actually met up with my female friends to apologise outside the club explaining who they were and that their friend, only recently (I think with the last two to three years at the time) post-op and thought my female friends had been "looking at them funny" and said they "looked mannish". Nothing of the sort happened at all. I was with the group the whole time and we didnt notice or pay the group of transgendered people at all. In fact had the guy not come and told us what had happened we would have been none the wiser as to what it was all about.

    I was a student at the time and the gender reassigned female was living a female halls of residence nearby and friends living there whom I visited regularly reported bizarre and aggressive behaviour all the time. Initially they were able to excuse it as something which was a consequence of hormonal treatments but after enough of it they just began reporting the behaviour because they thought it was more like psychological disturbance and, bizarrely, mysogyny than anything else.

    Now I'd be content to describe that as an anomaly in an already small, small percentage of the population, and I dont have the statistics, it could be an exceptional case of unhappiness and issues greater than being transgendered. Although I tend to recall it, actual, concrete experience, when I encounter anyone abstractly reasoning that allocating resources to this sort of procedure is all it takes to make for happiness of all involved and indeed a sort of general ripple effect of happiness out to everyone.

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Since I saw it this morning and it's relevant:

    A third of Fortune 500 companies now cover transgender health care - Yahoo News

    A third of Fortune 500 companies now cover transgender health care

    The number of Fortune 500 companies willing pay for sex reassignment surgeries and other transgender-related healthcare has gone from zero in 2002 to 169 this year, according to a new report from the Human Rights Campaign.

    The report, which ranks corporations on their treatment of gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans employees, also found that more than half of corporations with more than 500 employees that participated in the survey now cover the procedures. That’s 418 firms.

    Some of the biggest names in corporate America are among those who have signed up to cover the procedures, at up to $75,000 per employee. Facebook Inc., Visa, Starbucks Corp., CVS Health Corp. and Anheuser-Busch Companies Inc. are just some of the firms that decided this year to begin covering the procedures for their workers for the first time.

    “The jump in terms of employers adopting transgender benefits has been the most dramatic of any single aspect of the Corporate Equality Index in its entire history,” said Deena Fidas, the director of the Human Rights Campaign’s Workplace Equality Program, which has been producing the report for more than a decade.

    ...The vast majority of health insurance plans explicitly ban the coverage of any transition-related care, grouping those procedures with elective cosmetic surgery.

    This has slowly begun to change as mainstream medical organizations, including the American Medical Association, have announced new positions in recent years stating that sex reassignment surgery is not elective for some transgender people. (The American Medical Association said in 2008 that “gender dysphoria” is a “serious medical condition” that can result in “suicidality and death” without proper treatment.)

    “Transition-related care is absolutely essential to trans people who are seeking to be themselves,” said Lisa Mottet, deputy executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality. “In many cases, this care is actually life-saving..."
    This is actually the culmination of many years of discussions and awareness of the condition.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member danseen's Avatar
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    Oct 2013


    It depends. I think it depends on how a TS sees his or her transition. Many don't want surgery, I guess for the reasons the OP cites.
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  10. #40
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Studying. Just found out this astounding fact: 5 to 8% of FTM patients taking testosterone experience clitoral growth sufficient for penetrative vaginal intercourse. ???!!!!! Permanent change.

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