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  1. #11
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Because the heart of therapy is rapport.

    Your heart and the heart of the therapist come very close.

    So if your therapist has failed to work through his own neurosis, he will fail to help you work through your neurosis.

    Look, Gurus need followers and followers need Gurus.

    It is a way of perpetually remaining a child rather than doing the hard work of growing up.

    And if you fail to mature, eventually you become rancid.
    But Jung's not my therapist. I'm just using his ideas, but he is not my therapist. I don't doubt my own "therapy" is inadequate since it's just me, myself and I (occasionally one of my friends), but I still don't see how Jung's personal attributes fits into this.
    intp | type 9w1 sp/sx/so

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirilis View Post
    But Jung's not my therapist. I'm just using his ideas, but he is not my therapist. I don't doubt my own "therapy" is inadequate since it's just me, myself and I (occasionally one of my friends), but I still don't see how Jung's personal attributes fits into this.
    Of course Jung is not our therapist, he is our Guru. He is a Guru of the New Age.

    But personal attributes are what therapy is all about. It is not a mechanical process.

    Look, to put it simply - you get two chances at unconditional love, the first with your mother and if that didn't work out, with your therapist.

    It is not mechanical, it is person to person.

    And the personal quality of your therapist is paramount.

    MBTI offers you a mechanism of four magic letters instead of wholesome personal contact. It's like giving a rag doll to a monkey when its mother dies.

    Look, the archetypes are just Jung's neurotic way of avoiding personal emotional contact with his father.

    And MBTI and the archetypes appeal to neurotics today because they offer a way of avoiding personal emotional contact. They offer a way to manipulate the emotional life because it is too painful to feel.

    MBTI and the archetypes remain the opium of the people - but how they must suffer to need so much opium.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    That's odd because personality theory has been part of helping me to find out who I was. Not the only part - I am more than just four letters - but still an important part.

    And my New Age books helped a lot too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It is a nice way of avoiding our neurosis.

    It's a nice way of avoiding finding out who we are.

    It enables us to continue to project our ressentiment onto others.

    It enables us to avoid taking responsibility for our emotional life.

    It enables us to remain comfortable at other's expense.

    The Guru offers us comfort rather than growing up.

    In fact Carl Jung failed to individuate from his father and failed to grow up.

    And so Carl is the perfect pied piper for the juvenile - for the perpetually juvenile.

    A Guru is the problem, not the solution.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    That's odd because personality theory has been part of helping me to find out who I was. Not the only part - I am more than just four letters - but still an important part.

    And my New Age books helped a lot too.
    You know, the only way I will know who you are is if you show me.

    If you continue to tell me, all I get is the rehearsed part of you.

    But life is not a dress rehearsal.

    But to show me you would need to move beyond INTJ to spontaneity.

    And the price you would pay for being spontaneous would come in two installments.

    First you would need to give up your desire to be safe through manipulating and controlling yourself and others.

    And second, you would become vulnerable.

    This is too high a price for you to pay, so I will never know who you are.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    I think spontaneity is one of those personality difference. Some people are spontanious, some are not. I am not.

    I admit that I often work with my words a lot before I share them with other people. If I did not people would not be able to understand me. I am speaking from personal experience here. It has taken years of practice for me to get my complex thought into something other people have a reasonable chance of understanding.

    I spent most of my life manipulating and controling myself due to pressures from other people and a desire to fit in and not be looked down upon for being weird. Now I am in the process of reversing that. I have been for serveral years, so I gave up that desire a long time ago. And yes, it is a bit scary for my sometimes. I get worried about how people will react but I do it anyway. As I have mentioned before on the site, it is still a balancing act. There are times when it is not wise to disclose everything if you know people will not react well. For example, telling a religious fanatic about my metaphysical beliefs doesn't really accomplish anything other that getting them to go off on a rant.

    I have never tried to manipulate or control others, unless you count trying to get people to be more understanding of me. And I suppose normal parenting things like eat your vegitables and brush your teeth, though overall I was a pretty liberal parent. I raised my child to be independant.

    But I am curious, what parts of me do you think I am hiding from you? What do you want to know? Is it because I don't talk much about the mundane details of my personal life? I did tell you I was into New Age stuff, even knowing how you feel about it. I suppose that was a bit of risk, but not really since I already seem to be one of your preferred sparing partners.

    Ilah

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    I think spontaneity is one of those personality difference. Some people are spontanious, some are not. I am not.

    I admit that I often work with my words a lot before I share them with other people. If I did not people would not be able to understand me. I am speaking from personal experience here. It has taken years of practice for me to get my complex thought into something other people have a reasonable chance of understanding.

    I spent most of my life manipulating and controling myself due to pressures from other people and a desire to fit in and not be looked down upon for being weird. Now I am in the process of reversing that. I have been for serveral years, so I gave up that desire a long time ago. And yes, it is a bit scary for my sometimes. I get worried about how people will react but I do it anyway. As I have mentioned before on the site, it is still a balancing act. There are times when it is not wise to disclose everything if you know people will not react well. For example, telling a religious fanatic about my metaphysical beliefs doesn't really accomplish anything other that getting them to go off on a rant.

    I have never tried to manipulate or control others, unless you count trying to get people to be more understanding of me. And I suppose normal parenting things like eat your vegitables and brush your teeth, though overall I was a pretty liberal parent. I raised my child to be independant.

    But I am curious, what parts of me do you think I am hiding from you? What do you want to know? Is it because I don't talk much about the mundane details of my personal life? I did tell you I was into New Age stuff, even knowing how you feel about it. I suppose that was a bit of risk, but not really since I already seem to be one of your preferred sparing partners.

    Ilah
    My dear sparring partner,

    I like your style and you have made a very interesting post.

    And you are quite right - spontaneity can be dangerous.

    So it is important to handle it with care - just as it is important to handle you with care.

    Like you, I also value control and I see control as a way of handling spontaneity with care.

    So I divide the world into three parts - the chaotic, the controlled and the spontaneous.

    As I see it, we are born chaotic without even control over our splincter, but with the help of our parents and peers, we learn control, reaching the peak of our control about the age of twenty-two when our brains are fully grown.

    So what are we to do? We can't learn any more control, but we can learn to be spontaneous.

    This is not an easy thing to do as we have just spent our whole lives learning control and we, and our parents, are justifiably proud of our achievement.

    Also society puts us to work because we have achieved such exquisite control. And naturally they want to keep us working to get a return on their investment.

    And quite naturally we feel fear at any loss of control - we don't want to give up what we have so painstakingly acquired and of which we are so proud.

    So our next life task is enter the sunny uplands of spontaneity by building on the chaos and subsequent control of our past.

    If we fail in this final life task, we become absurd.

    But if we succeed, we discover spontaneity brings joy.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    I have been thinking all afternoon on how to reply, and can't come up with anything to disagree with.

    You win this round.

  8. #18
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Hi Ilah.

    I'm new to MBTICentral and so have only just read your thread. I am fascinated by John Beebe's ideas relating the eight function-attitudes to Jungian archetypes. For some time now, I have been looking for signs of these archetypes in myself, to try and determine if they match up in the way that Beebe suggests.

    Lately, I have had a number of significant dreams in which I've been able to recognise the following archetypes (associated type functions in brackets):

    Hero (Ni): A strong male figure with superpowers or magical abilities who steps in to save the day. Usually represented by myself in a dream, but sometimes can be a third party.

    Parent (Fe): Usually, my actual parents. Alternatively, a wise male mentor figure, such as Professor X of the X-Men. Can be somewhat stern and aloof, but at other times will save me from disaster.

    Child (Ti): A young boy, cocky and streetwise, may look like an urchin. He will initiate some type of bantering dialogue with me. He is charming and witty, but I get the sense that he is not to be fully trusted, or may attempt to steal something from me. However, if I decide to trust him, he may lead me along a secret path to treasure.

    Anima (Se) A beautiful female with flowing hair. She also tends to appear as a superhero, often assisting me in the dream. On a number of occasions, she has manifested as the Marvel superhero "Scarlet Witch".

    Opposing personality (Ne) Can be male or female, usually charismatic and powerful. Will publicly denounce me in a very nasty way. May rouse an army of supporters to rise up against me; this can lead to open warfare on a grand scale.

    Witch (Fi) A woman who used to be my best friend, but who became increasingly unstable and manipulative. Escaping her clutches was one of the hardest things I've ever done; now she haunts my dreams!

    Trickster (Te) No idea as yet.

    Demon (Si) A dark male figure, only seen in silhouette. He lurks on the edge of a scene and is both sinister and seductive at the same time. He clearly is linked to my own Shadow side. At other times a monster of some kind, actively trying to destroy me. If I am in Hero mode, we may engage in an epic, superhero-type battle which commonly ends in a stalemate.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

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