Freud and Jung

[Mole]

I also come back to the fact that "Enlightened" thinking created a supposedly scientific basis for racial and cultural supremacy, as well as eugenics for dealing with such "problems" as inferior genetics.

Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

The Enlightenment gave us equality.

The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.

 

[Mole]

Rousseau was not the only person who influenced the Romantic Age, just as Voltaire wasn't the only Philosophe.

Sure, but he was the first and perhaps the most famous and the most quoted.

 

[heart]

Sure, but he was the first and perhaps the most famous and the most quoted.

Sure, if we're talking strictly of Freshmen.

 

[Mole]

Sure, if we're talking strictly of Freshmen.

Well, I am a Freshman. But we call them Undergraduates.

But perhaps it should be Freshpersons.

And so far no one has called me fresh.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

I can actually debate the accuracy of some of those points, but anyway, saying that it's "pseudo science" doesn't refute its connection to the enlightenment.

Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

That clearly misses the point. The point is that the enligthetnment gave entirely new, and arguably more deadly strength to racism. The enlightenment fueled genocide.

The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

The Enlightenment gave us equality.

Empty words, too often repeated.

The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.

The enlightenment was extremely inspirational to Communism. Many Communist thinkers were "Englightened". Now, it is true that the Nazis were total romantics in their own sick way, but they did defend their cause with a lot of Enlightenment based ideas... like the Eugenics I was talking about.

 

[heart]

Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

The Enlightenment gave us equality.

The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.

1. I am now consfused about your opinions. You said the USA has probelms because they believe too much in equality. (See below)

2. Even though Eugenics can be said to be a false science, it still uses the foil of science and reason to justify itself. Same can be said of those who use Romaniticism to justify their ends.

I am not suggesting you are all equal. In fact I am quoting Alexis de Tocqueville who visited your great country and described its organising principal as Equality.

Of course there are competing values such as Excellence. So you play off Excellence against Equality, but Equality still remains your prime value.

And looking at it from a distance, it is a mono-value.

Fish didn't discover water and you are a fish in the water of your own culture. That is why you are short sighted to dismiss those who can see the water you swim in. However we know you have been doing this from the very beginning and so it will continue.

Your overall problem is interesting but not very important - you want not only power but you want to be loved as well - yet you walk all over the mores and sensibilities of those you control - and taking into account economic control, military control and cultural control, you control most of the world. And you wonder aloud, "Why do they hate us?".

Rome made a point of respecting the mores of those they controlled. And Britain also respected the mores of those they controlled. But you seem to have a blind spot.

But it is more comic than tragic.

He is actually quite interesting. What is most interesting is that he found you understandable whereas he didn't find the British understandable.

He found you understandable because you are organised around one central principle whereas the British do not have one central organising principle. So Alexis could understand you and predict your future. But he could not predict where the British would go.

And you ask me, Piranha, what is your organising principle - should I tell you? Why not.

It is oddly enough Equality. And once you understand this everything else falls into place.

So one might say you are one dimensional with all the strength that implies of single purpose and the concentration of all your energies into one direction. And this is what we see.

Of course being one dimensional has its weaknesses as well such as a blindness to alternatives, a certain emotional flatness and oddly enough an attenuated sense of humour.

Unfortunately Alexis did not turn his attention to Oz. The closest we have is a visit from D.H.Lawrence and he described us, quite accurately, as lazy authoritarians. He said he wasn't worried about Fascism in Oz as we were too lazy to make it work.

And so we remain today - the trains run on time, you can drink the water and our streets are safe and we treat it all with laconic humour.

Thank heavens for the Yanks - you give us sense of direction and that is why we have not one but three international treaties with you - a Military Treaty, a Land Treaty and an Economic Treaty.

Each Treaty is working quite well and we are happy with you.

 

[Mole]

I can actually debate the accuracy of some of those points, but anyway, saying that it's "pseudo science" doesn't refute its connection to the enlightenment.

That clearly misses the point. The point is that the enligthetnment gave entirely new, and arguably more deadly strength to racism. The enlightenment fueled genocide.

Empty words, too often repeated.

The enlightenment was extremely inspirational to Communism. Many Communist thinkers were "Englightened". Now, it is true that the Nazis were total romantics in their own sick way, but they did defend their cause with a lot of Enlightenment based ideas... like the Eugenics I was talking about.

This is just popular prejudice. It is conventional wisdom.

I don't think you understand the Enlightenment, Communism, Nazism, Eugenics or Islam.

And certainly, Reason, Freedom and Equality are real for me and for Western Civilization.

 

[heart]

And certainly, Reason, Freedom and Equality are real for me and for Western Civilization.

This is a simplex view. There are many living within western civilization who don't enjoy true freedom and/or equality.

 

[Mole]

2. Even though Eugenics can be said to be a false science, it still uses the foil of science and reason to justify itself. Same can be said of those who use Romanticism to justify their ends.

Sure, pseudo science does use science as foil to justify itself.

The problem with Romanticism is that it is opposed to the Enlightenment.

And unfortunately today, barbarism is also opposed to the Enlightenment.

And barbarism is using our tradition of Romanticism against us.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Oy.

Most of Victor's argument is based on a language and a logic system all his own, which has not been thoroughly explained to anyone else, and may never be.

I don't know about you heart, but I was just taking this as an exercise. Now that I see where this problem goes, I think I'm done with this. If you would like to continue with him, just keep in mind how impenetrable he is.

 

[heart]

You feel that civilization always trumps native populations in morality and freedom and equality for its members?

It was civilzation that brought in the priestcraft and control over people through such measures.

 

[Mole]

This is a simplex view. There are many living within western civilization who don't enjoy true freedom and/or equality.

Sure, but we are working toward it.

Already we have made great strides.

In 1833 The House of Commons abolished the institution of slavery for the first time in human history.

And in the 20th Century women achieved their emancipation.

And in 1948 we passed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And in the last few decades the laws against child sexual abuse have been enforced in the West.

Modern economics have for the first time in human history abolished scarcity in the West.

Liberal Democracy has succeeded in limiting power - see your Constitution and mine.

And science is a roaring success.

The Enlightenment has come a long way and we have a long way to go particularly in some non-Western countries.

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."

- your own Robert Frost.

 

[heart]

In 1833 The House of Commons abolished the institution of slavery for the first time in human history.

1. Frost is a Romantic! So why are you spreading such evil poison here?

2. Slavery is being re-created with the privately-owned prison industrial system.

That's just one example.

 

[Mole]

Oy.

Most of Victor's argument is based on a language and a logic system all his own, which has not been thoroughly explained to anyone else, and may never be.

I don't know about you heart, but I was just taking this as an exercise. Now that I see where this problem goes, I think I'm done with this. If you would like to continue with him, just keep in mind how impenetrable he is.

You know, I like to read books that I don't quite understand.

It's as though there is a part of my brain that is tickled by new ideas.

And when I play tennis, I like to play with someone who is slightly better than me.

Perhaps you could think of me as a book you don't quite understand.

 

[Mole]

1. Frost is a Romantic! So why are you spreading such evil poison here?

It's true, the first line I quoted is Romantic -

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,"

But he doesn't allow himself to fall into the sleep of Romanticism, he remains awake to keep his promises -

"But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."

He remains awake to keep the promise of the Enlightenment.

 

[heart]

It's true, the first line I quoted is Romantic -

"The woods are lovely, dark and deep,"

But he doesn't allow himself to fall into the sleep of Romanticism, he remains awake to keep his promises -

"But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."

He remains awake to keep the promise of the Enlightenment.

Frost believed that nature and its cycles are so ingrained in humans that we'll never rise above it and that's about as anti-Enlightenment (and anti-transcentalism) as a person can get and I don't care what you "feel" he is saying, you are spreading Romanticism when you quote him and according to your own philosophy that makes you a helper to the barbaric agenda.

 

[Sunshine]

And religion and romanticism are the enemies of the Enlightenment.

BlueWing?

 

[Mole]

2. Slavery is being re-created with the privately-owned prison industrial system.

I am referring to the Institution of Slavey that was abolished for the first time by the House of Commons.

Here we have laws against slavey and recently we have had a successful prosecution for slavery.

So although we don't have the Institution of Slavey, slavery still occurs and we prosecute it vigourously.

And yes slavey still exists in Gulags and Work Camps and in trafficking sex slaves.

I don't know of any Institutional Slavery even in the Sudan.

After the House of Commons abolished the Institution of Slavery, the Royal Navy was sent out into the Atlantic with orders to sink any of your ships trafficking in slavery. And you were sensible enough to stop.

Perhaps you remembered we burnt the White House to the ground in our last encounter and thought we might do the same with your ships.

 

[Mole]

Frost believed that nature and its cycles are so ingrained in humans that we'll never rise above it and that's about as anti-Enlightenment (and anti-transcentalism) as a person can get and I don't care what you "feel" he is saying, you are spreading Romanticism when you quote him and according to your own philosophy that makes you a helper to the barbaric agenda.

It's true I am deeply affected by the Romantic Movement.

I was so affected I became a hippy.

You remember, there were three types of hippie - the political hippy, the drug hippy and the mystical hippy. I was a mystical hippy.

But I was awakened from my sleep of Romanticism by the destruction of the Twin Towers.

And I struggle to stay awake to keep the promises of the Enlightenment.

And I am in excellent company, along with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is visiting us at the moment.

 

[heart]

Here we have laws against slavey and recently we have had a successful prosecution for slavery.

So although we don't have the Institution of Slavey, slavery still occurs and we prosecute it vigourously.

Read about the Prison privatization in your own country. Use both your reason and your feeling, see what's in the works there.

Oh yeah, I forgot, the bad guy always wears a black hat and the good guy a white one...

Perhaps you remembered we burnt the White House to the ground in our last encounter and thought we might do the same with your ships.

1. The British burned the first White House, not the Australians. Have you changed your country then?

2. As you have said before a person is not seperable from the mass collective of their country, are you speaking for Australia and declaring war on the USA?