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Freud and Jung

Magic Poriferan

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What was that?

The Enlightenment is very important - you might even say of overriding importance in relations between your country and mine.

For your country was founded by Religious Dissidents while mine was founded by the Scottish and English Enlightenment. Deported criminals.
 

Mole

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That's an odd statement, in so far as I can't tell what it's purpose or relevance is. The only relevant thing I can pick out of that is the comment about Jung, and I don't think he was exactly against the whole enlightenment.

Outside of the West, Islam did not go through the Enlightenment and remains opposed to it all.

Within the West, Religion and Romanticism opposed the Enlightenment.

Within the West, about 1900, Religion declared the Enlightenment to be a Heresy.

And the very point of the Romantic Movement was to oppose the Enlightenment.

Freud was in the tradition of the Enlightenment.

While Jung was in the tradition of the New Age Religion, as is MBTI.
 

Mole

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And what about it being a synonym with reason? This seems to be the making of some kind of pseudo-logical equation.

Reason is the leitmotif of the Enlightenment.

Why, the French Enlightenment installed the Goddess of Reason in Notre Dame Cathedral in the very heart of Paris.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Outside of the West, Islam did not go through the Enlightenment and remains opposed to it all.

Within the West, Religion and Romanticism opposed the Enlightenment.

Within the West, about 1900, Religion declared the Enlightenment to be a Heresy.

And the very point of the Romantic Movement was to oppose the Enlightenment.

Freud was in the tradition of the Enlightenment.

While Jung was in the tradition of the New Age Religion, as is MBTI.

Okay... Of all my possible targets, I think I'm just going to re-state that the enlightenment wasn't all good and the counter-enlightenment wasn't all bad.
And the enlightenment certainly isn't responsible for everything we value today... in fact, many believe that the counter-enlightenment beliefs were important to giving us what we value. The culture of the enlightenment was very elitist, and most non-elitist or anti-elitist concepts we value are owed more to counter-enlightenment thinking. Furthmore, any claims of dominion over reason by the "enlightened" is certainly folly. Essentially none of the enlightenment's critics, save perhaps the dogmatically religious, were skeptical of the value of reasoning.

Reason is the leitmotif of the Enlightenment.

Why, the French Enlightenment installed the Goddess of Reason in Notre Dame Cathedral in the very heart of Paris.

Doesn't it seem terribly ironic to you that the enlightened thinkers would erect a statue of a goddess to represent reason?
 

Mole

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Doesn't it seem terribly ironic to you that the enlightened thinkers would erect a statue of a goddess to represent reason?

Of course, and it was deliciously ironic for the Enlightened who installed her in the very heart of the enemy.

Irony was the very point of installing her in the heart of Religion, in Notre Dame Cathedral.

I understand it was quite a carnival.
 

Mole

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The culture of the enlightenment was very elitist, and most non-elitist or anti-elitist concepts we value are owed more to counter-enlightenment thinking.

Quite the opposite.

The Enlightenment gave us, "one vote, one value".

And the Enlightenment gave us the secret ballot, called the Australian ballot.

The Enlightenment gave us votes for women, first achieved in Australia.

And the Enlightenment gave us the Bill of Rights.
 

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And religion and romanticism are the enemies of the Enlightenment.

The Enlightenment spawned the violence of the French Revolution. People reacted by going towards Romaniticism. There's no perfect pancea.


Subconsciously you knew this already victor, so why did you start this thread? :devil:

And yes, you've already said that you feel Austrailia had the perfect response to the Revolutionary Era. Good for you. You're not American. Woohoo. You've no further need for any personality development beynd that, that's your whole sense of self-worth, where you were born. :rolleyes:
 

Mole

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Doesn't it seem terribly ironic to you that the enlightened thinkers would erect a statue of a goddess to represent reason?

The Statue of Liberty is a direct copy of the statue, the Goddess of Reason, that was installed in Notre Dame Cathedral, Paris, France.

And the Statue of Liberty was a gift to you by the French Enlightenment.

The name, Statue of Liberty, means freedom.

And she is a direct, exact copy of the Goddess of Reason in France.

So the one thing that represents you to the world embodies Reason and Freedom.

And Reason and Freedom are the Enlightenment.

So loyal Americans have an interest in defending the values of the Enlightenment along with loyal Australians whose very country was founded by the Scottish and English Enlightenment.
 

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Reason never exists in this world without feeling because of the way humans are made. To ignore either is to court disaster, but people never learn, they always want to swing absolute in one direction or the other. There's value in both the Age of Reason and the Age of Romance and there are dangers in both as well. Better to strike a balance.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Actually, my own mental dictionary divides it into Thinking and Feeling, while Reasoning is the word I assigned for rationale that uses both. :)

I think Feeling is inate to Reasoning.
 

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Actually, my own mental dictionary divides it into Thinking and Feeling, while Reasoning is the word I assigned for rationale that uses both. :)

I think Feeling is inate to Reasoning.

I think the Philosophes used the Reason verses Sentiment jargon.

Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson are generally considered to be part of the Philosophes of the Enlightenment.
 

Mole

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Reason never exists in this world without feeling because of the way humans are made. To ignore either is to court disaster, but people never learn, they always want to swing absolute in one direction or the other. There's value in both the Age of Reason and the Age of Romance and there are dangers in both as well. Better to strike a balance.

Our present day problem is that a tribal and totalitarian religion has declared war against us.

And they use our Romanticism against us.

In particular they use our moral relativism against us.

For historical reasons they never went through the Enlightenment, and they reject Enlightenment values such as the separation of Church and State, the equality of women and men, as well as freedom of speech.

And they reject any rational criticism of their holy book. Such criticism is not only seen as offensive but blasphemous. And the ordained penalty for such a blasphemous offense is death.

And they put this death penalty into practice. For instance they slaughtered Theo van Gogh in front of his home for criticising their holy book.

And with a knife they pinned a manifesto and a threat to the chest of the slaughtered Theo.

In this threat they promised to kill Ayaan Hirsi Ali for the same offense, as well as apostasy.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is in Australia as I write under the strictest security to guard her life.

She is a brave, intelligent and charming women and a true heroine of our time.

She has written a number of excellent books which I highly recommend.

In particular she enjoins us to defend the values of the Enlightenment against barbarism.
 

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Nothing you've just said negates the idea that a balance of reason and romanticism is something to strive for.

Any philosophy can be bastardized and used for nefarious ends.
 

Mole

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Nothing you've just said negates the idea that a balance of reason and romanticism is something to strive for.

Any philosophy can be bastardized and used for nefarious ends.

Quite the contrary.

Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) was the first to romanticise tribalism with his, "Noble Savage".

And such romanticism has been applied to tribal aborigines in Australia with the almost universal result of child sexual abuse and the murder of aboriginal women by aboriginal men.

The situation is so bad we have been forced to send in the army, police and medical workers as well as spending many billions of dollars.

Romanticism is merely to make Westerners feel good while destroying the lives of aboriginal children and their mothers.
 

Magic Poriferan

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Romanticism is merely to make Westerners feel good while destroying the lives of aboriginal children and their mothers.

Wow. That is as over-the-top as it gets.

I also come back to the fact that "Enlightened" thinking created a supposedly scientific basis for racial and cultural supremacy, as well as eugenics for dealing with such "problems" as inferior genetics.
 

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I don't know enough about Austrialian aborigines to say if your claims about their culture are true or if they were always true. If true, how much is a result of the assualt on their culture and family structure? Was it always true?

Civilization can be looked at and negatives picked out of it as well. Children are still abused and molested in civilized countries and the system of civilized society manipluated and used to get away with it. There are psychopaths and sick people in every culture.

I also come back to the fact that "Enlightened" thinking created a supposedly scientific basis for racial and cultural supremacy, as well as eugenics for dealing with such "problems" as inferior genetics.

Yes, absolutely, the hierarchies of Darwinistic evolution used to justify eugenics and eventually ethnic cleansing etc. Anything can be used to justify evil.
 

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If you are over the age of consent in your country, do a search on "Kinsey's Pedophiles" and see what "reason" and science can be used to enact on children.
 

Mole

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Wow. That is as over-the-top as it gets.

Unfortunately is it not over the top, it is reality. You can read any number of Australian Government reports which describe the present situation in detail.

But you only need to read Australian newspapers to know the situation is dire.

And to know that the policy of Rousseauean Romanticism is responsible.
 

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Unfortunately is it not over the top, it is reality. You can read any number of Australian Government reports which describe the present situation in detail.

But you only need to read Australian newspapers to know the situation is dire.

And to know that the policy of Rousseauean Romanticism is responsible.

Rousseau was not the only person who influenced the Romantic Age, just as Voltaire wasn't the only Philosophe.
 
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