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Thread: Freud and Jung

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I also come back to the fact that "Enlightened" thinking created a supposedly scientific basis for racial and cultural supremacy, as well as eugenics for dealing with such "problems" as inferior genetics.
    Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

    Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

    The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

    The Enlightenment gave us equality.

    The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Rousseau was not the only person who influenced the Romantic Age, just as Voltaire wasn't the only Philosophe.
    Sure, but he was the first and perhaps the most famous and the most quoted.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sure, but he was the first and perhaps the most famous and the most quoted.
    Sure, if we're talking strictly of Freshmen.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Sure, if we're talking strictly of Freshmen.
    Well, I am a Freshman. But we call them Undergraduates.

    But perhaps it should be Freshpersons.

    And so far no one has called me fresh.

  5. #45
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.
    I can actually debate the accuracy of some of those points, but anyway, saying that it's "pseudo science" doesn't refute its connection to the enlightenment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.
    That clearly misses the point. The point is that the enligthetnment gave entirely new, and arguably more deadly strength to racism. The enlightenment fueled genocide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

    The Enlightenment gave us equality.
    Empty words, too often repeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.
    The enlightenment was extremely inspirational to Communism. Many Communist thinkers were "Englightened". Now, it is true that the Nazis were total romantics in their own sick way, but they did defend their cause with a lot of Enlightenment based ideas... like the Eugenics I was talking about.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Eugenics is pseudo science. There is no scientific basis for eugenics. DNA has shown us we are all one race from a common ancestor.

    Racism is far older than the Enlightenment.

    The Enlightenment gave us freedom and reason.

    The Enlightenment gave us equality.

    The Enlightenment has seen off totalitarian regimes such as Communism and Nazism and we will see off totalitarian Islam but it will be a long struggle.

    1. I am now consfused about your opinions. You said the USA has probelms because they believe too much in equality. (See below)

    2. Even though Eugenics can be said to be a false science, it still uses the foil of science and reason to justify itself. Same can be said of those who use Romaniticism to justify their ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I am not suggesting you are all equal. In fact I am quoting Alexis de Tocqueville who visited your great country and described its organising principal as Equality.

    Of course there are competing values such as Excellence. So you play off Excellence against Equality, but Equality still remains your prime value.

    And looking at it from a distance, it is a mono-value.

    Fish didn't discover water and you are a fish in the water of your own culture. That is why you are short sighted to dismiss those who can see the water you swim in. However we know you have been doing this from the very beginning and so it will continue.

    Your overall problem is interesting but not very important - you want not only power but you want to be loved as well - yet you walk all over the mores and sensibilities of those you control - and taking into account economic control, military control and cultural control, you control most of the world. And you wonder aloud, "Why do they hate us?".

    Rome made a point of respecting the mores of those they controlled. And Britain also respected the mores of those they controlled. But you seem to have a blind spot.

    But it is more comic than tragic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    He is actually quite interesting. What is most interesting is that he found you understandable whereas he didn't find the British understandable.

    He found you understandable because you are organised around one central principle whereas the British do not have one central organising principle. So Alexis could understand you and predict your future. But he could not predict where the British would go.

    And you ask me, Piranha, what is your organising principle - should I tell you? Why not.

    It is oddly enough Equality. And once you understand this everything else falls into place.

    So one might say you are one dimensional with all the strength that implies of single purpose and the concentration of all your energies into one direction. And this is what we see.

    Of course being one dimensional has its weaknesses as well such as a blindness to alternatives, a certain emotional flatness and oddly enough an attenuated sense of humour.

    Unfortunately Alexis did not turn his attention to Oz. The closest we have is a visit from D.H.Lawrence and he described us, quite accurately, as lazy authoritarians. He said he wasn't worried about Fascism in Oz as we were too lazy to make it work.

    And so we remain today - the trains run on time, you can drink the water and our streets are safe and we treat it all with laconic humour.

    Thank heavens for the Yanks - you give us sense of direction and that is why we have not one but three international treaties with you - a Military Treaty, a Land Treaty and an Economic Treaty.

    Each Treaty is working quite well and we are happy with you.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I can actually debate the accuracy of some of those points, but anyway, saying that it's "pseudo science" doesn't refute its connection to the enlightenment.

    That clearly misses the point. The point is that the enligthetnment gave entirely new, and arguably more deadly strength to racism. The enlightenment fueled genocide.

    Empty words, too often repeated.

    The enlightenment was extremely inspirational to Communism. Many Communist thinkers were "Englightened". Now, it is true that the Nazis were total romantics in their own sick way, but they did defend their cause with a lot of Enlightenment based ideas... like the Eugenics I was talking about.
    This is just popular prejudice. It is conventional wisdom.

    I don't think you understand the Enlightenment, Communism, Nazism, Eugenics or Islam.

    And certainly, Reason, Freedom and Equality are real for me and for Western Civilization.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And certainly, Reason, Freedom and Equality are real for me and for Western Civilization.
    This is a simplex view. There are many living within western civilization who don't enjoy true freedom and/or equality.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    2. Even though Eugenics can be said to be a false science, it still uses the foil of science and reason to justify itself. Same can be said of those who use Romanticism to justify their ends.
    Sure, pseudo science does use science as foil to justify itself.

    The problem with Romanticism is that it is opposed to the Enlightenment.

    And unfortunately today, barbarism is also opposed to the Enlightenment.

    And barbarism is using our tradition of Romanticism against us.

  10. #50
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Oy.

    Most of Victor's argument is based on a language and a logic system all his own, which has not been thoroughly explained to anyone else, and may never be.

    I don't know about you heart, but I was just taking this as an exercise. Now that I see where this problem goes, I think I'm done with this. If you would like to continue with him, just keep in mind how impenetrable he is.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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