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  1. #131
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xNTP View Post
    So I have this problem. I hate hate hate disappointing people. I want them to like me and value me and this affects my authenticity and makes me hyperconscious of my surroundings. I monitor myself for thoughts that could lead to lead to disappointment or a rupture in the relationship, and monitor my surroundings for threats to the relationship. I don't even like thinking bad or disappointing thoughts about people I'm "supposed" to like. I'm not sure why I do that, or whether it's even connected. I can't see the connection if there is one. This doesn't just apply to people I know or care about, but strangers. Even a therapist I saw a few times a couple years ago, where I wanted to be an ideal patient, making breakthroughs left and right. It's a big deal in all of my relationships, especially the intimate ones. What's the connection? Am I just trying to avoid them not liking me?

    Also, I'd like to know if anyone here has gotten over this, how they did that, and how they understand the need for admiration/valuation. I'm also open to hearing what people think about this, but please, no type talk (if you're going to address your comments to me only). If you want to share that you do this but have no advice, that's cool.
    I realize this thread is from a while back and I already responded, but it's been in my mind since it popped back up. The two bolded portions struck me because I guess I don't see it as not being authentic to choose to think positive thoughts about someone a person might not have a naturally warm feeling towards. I think people own their choice as much as their feelings. I would think inauthentic would be indulging in negative thoughts about someone, but acting "nice" when they are around.

    For some reason it is difficult for me to pinpoint how I feel about this. Reading over the thread my heart goes out to people who feel worry or trepidation about it. I would give them each a hug. I don't think I could actively dislike any person who would feel disappointed, hurt, or anxious as a result of my rejection. I don't understand people who withhold acceptance or actively instill hurt, except that I know people often feel rejected or at a loss of power and that helps them regain those feelings in a shallow way. Also, people often instill in others the very feelings that resonate at their own core.

    I like people who actively dislike me in some cases, but that usually alleviates some of their own anxieties and dislike of me. Disliking someone can involve projecting past hurts onto a fresh, innocent person, or trying to feel in control, etc. I find that the more I understand a person, the less invested I am in their acceptance sometimes, and yet I prefer if everyone gets along because it seems more stable and rational to me. It feels to me like it requires an ego invested and tunnel vision to hate someone. Perhaps sometimes that is a reasonable response if they are actively instilling harm.

    There are people who dislike me and have said quite unfair statements to me. I'm trying to figure out how I feel about that and if I want those people to like me, and the answer is not that clear. For those whom I've seen behave inconsistently towards others (they actively dislike others without cause), I don't think their acceptance of me would be particularly reassuring. In a few cases I would find it disturbing because I don't trust their method of acceptance or rejection. If they hurt other people and enjoy it, then being super sweet to me just doesn't feel right or honest. I know if they aren't currently disliking me, then they could change on a dime at any time. Consistency means a lot to me, so it's almost better to just face it.

    I was also trying to think of people I dislike, and there are a few. I saw a guest on a talk show who was a raving Randroid, mind-numbingly elitist, and arrogant to boot. I actively disliked him, but I can guarantee he wouldn't care or be hurt in the slightest. I think he causes harm and has tunnel vision. However if he had life experiences and changed that front, I wouldn't continue a grudge. I suppose I can honestly say that there are no people I dislike, but there are certain behaviors I do not accept, those that cause harm especially if they are irrational and dishonest.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #132
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    I had that same problem when I was a teenager.

    It all changed when I started to like myself. Once you accept yourself for who you are, and get to LOVE yourself, people start doing the same.
    heh.

    Well, I think your advice is correct -- accepting yourself for who you are and loving yourself IS the best way to proceed, AND people who do not have prior investment in you will generally respond positively to a more positive and self-accepting you -- but I'm going to have to say that, in my experience, people who are invested in the old you and in the old patterns of you sometimes do not like the change because it threatens the established order of things. Sometimes loving yourself means losing the love of the people who loved the self you did not love before.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #133
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post

    I like people who actively dislike me in some cases, but that usually alleviates some of their own anxieties and dislike of me. Disliking someone can involve projecting past hurts onto a fresh, innocent person, or trying to feel in control, etc. I find that the more I understand a person, the less invested I am in their acceptance sometimes, and yet I prefer if everyone gets along because it seems more stable and rational to me. It feels to me like it requires an ego invested and tunnel vision to hate someone. Perhaps sometimes that is a reasonable response if they are actively instilling harm.

    There are people who dislike me and have said quite unfair statements to me. I'm trying to figure out how I feel about that and if I want those people to like me, and the answer is not that clear. For those whom I've seen behave inconsistently towards others (they actively dislike others without cause), I don't think their acceptance of me would be particularly reassuring. In a few cases I would find it disturbing because I don't trust their method of acceptance or rejection. If they hurt other people and enjoy it, then being super sweet to me just doesn't feel right or honest. I know if they aren't currently disliking me, then they could change on a dime at any time. Consistency means a lot to me, so it's almost better to just face it.
    I relate to this. I don't want to be liked by people I despise. That's a negative sort of endorsement. My assessment of a person is entirely unrelated to how they feel about me, more often than not. That's rare though, isn't it? Most people seem to simply like those who like them. That always struck me as rather lacking in discrimination. What is the reason for it (beyond the obvious one of basing one's self-esteem on the opinions of others)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #134
    L'anima non dimora Donna Cecilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    heh.

    Well, I think your advice is correct -- accepting yourself for who you are and loving yourself IS the best way to proceed, AND people who do not have prior investment in you will generally respond positively to a more positive and self-accepting you -- but I'm going to have to say that, in my experience, people who are invested in the old you and in the old patterns of you sometimes do not like the change because it threatens the established order of things. Sometimes loving yourself means losing the love of the people who loved the self you did not love before.
    Thats true, but, if you do the cost-benefit analysis, youll know that it was worth it. I dont think there is such thing as an "old and new" self. It is just you, but with different needs. At the end of the process, youll stay with the people who really love you.

    I agree with you on that respect, but, its too bad that some people cant understand that the change of patterns only serves a need for personal growth. Those people will stop loving you. The others, will stay by your side. That happened to me as well.

    "An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise."
    Victor Hugo



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  5. #135
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    This is just nothing more than existential guilt. When the wishes of the self are in conflict with the wished of the group or the other. This is the price we pay for consciousness.

    The price we pay for imagination is fear. However for both guilt and fear, it can be mitigated and rationalized. Check out REBT for autopsychotherapy.

    While there are many ideas about how to get over it in this thread, fundamentally there is no solution. It just one of those things that you have to deal with in life: what are your boundaries? If you have a mission in life, this can help set the boundaries.


    My existential guilt solution:

    In philosophy, there are 3 main branches of normative ethics. These are consequentialism, deontology and virtue ethics.

    I had found myself too focused on the end. I would sacrifice myself towards approval of some sort like "the ends justify the means" etc but of course, this would create an empty shell of what I am. So complete consequentialism was no good.

    Deontology is about a set of rules or principles set in the past. Kant's categorical imperative or the ten commandments etc are all problematic because they can never be applied correctly for all situation in the future. To have set rules in the past to effectively account for the future requires a sort of omniscience or a disbelief in free will. So compete deontology was no good.

    I had finally found virtue ethics to be the leading principle in my life. While I do accept deontology and consequentialism, they are not the driving factors. However switching wasn't enough.

    "Man has a certain pattern that makes him specifically human and no man is born without it. We are only deeply unconscious of these facts because we live all by our senses and outside of ourselves. If a man could look into himself he would discover it. And when a man discovers it, in our days, he thinks he's crazy... and he may be crazy." - Carl Jung
    Jung believed that we all had this innate treasure, this pattern that was unique to every individual. And it was more than genetics, it was your experiences as well that makes you unique. Must protect this uniqueness in some way. The arts or writing is a common way. It's a step to finding meaning in your life. Existential philosophy.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by xNTP View Post
    I just bought a book by Pema Chondron on Tonglen. Thanks Night.
    I really enjoy Pema's audio books, like a quality reassurring voice.

  7. #137
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donna Cecilia View Post
    Thats true, but, if you do the cost-benefit analysis, youll know that it was worth it. I dont think there is such thing as an "old and new" self. It is just you, but with different needs. At the end of the process, youll stay with the people who really love you.
    Well, yes, of course -- it's still all the same "self," isn't it?

    I was using "old" and "new":
    • For the sake of communication -- you have to label the two different expressions of self SOMEHOW, just to talk about the differing periods of one's life.
    • Because the people who disapprove will definitely categorize you that way -- they like the "old" you and don't want the "new " you. I've found they are very apt to make such a distinction.


    And yes, since the potential for loss exists, you will do whichever is most beneficial long-term, based on the cost/benefit analysis. People typically don't change until the pain/penalty of staying is worse than the fear/penalty of embracing change.

    I agree with you on that respect, but, its too bad that some people cant understand that the change of patterns only serves a need for personal growth. Those people will stop loving you. The others, will stay by your side. That happened to me as well.
    Yes, that is a good way to sum it up.

    Change is actually the essence of the world and NOT stability. Only dead things do not change; Life by nature changes.

    Pattern changes thus do really signify personal growth, but for those who are more hung up on a particular outcome and want to cling to it (a counterfeit stability), they're sort of choking the life from the living being they're trying to freeze in place.

    I wish people were more willing to view change as growth rather than loss.

    As I was writing above, about the cost-benefit analysis, along these same lines, I was thinking how sad it was that so often change is determined based on a negative assessment ("Which option provides the least amount of pain and loss?") rather than a positive assessment ("Which option provides for the most amount of joy and maturation?"). Still, the punishment that often comes along with self-change and maturation often forced one into trying to minimize damage/pain rather than maximize good/joy.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I was also trying to think of people I dislike, and there are a few. I saw a guest on a talk show who was a raving Randroid, mind-numbingly elitist, and arrogant to boot. I actively disliked him, but I can guarantee he wouldn't care or be hurt in the slightest. I think he causes harm and has tunnel vision. However if he had life experiences and changed that front, I wouldn't continue a grudge. I suppose I can honestly say that there are no people I dislike, but there are certain behaviors I do not accept, those that cause harm especially if they are irrational and dishonest.
    I feel sort of similar to what you are saying here. I've realized there are a few people I dislike, but it's really more I just don't like how they choose to relate to others. I can even get really upset, depending on the scenario, but I'm not really capable of holding a grudge (which would suggest I dislike/hate the actual person themselves); as soon as they relate to people differently I'm open again no matter what they've done in the past. I guess I never understood how some people can just cut others out regardless of how they change, etc., and personalize the disagreement that way. Maybe that is one reason why I wanted to please people... to avoid being cut out permanently no matter who I became.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #138
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Most people seem to simply like those who like them. That always struck me as rather lacking in discrimination. What is the reason for it (beyond the obvious one of basing one's self-esteem on the opinions of others)?
    Ditto.

  9. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Most people seem to simply like those who like them. That always struck me as rather lacking in discrimination. What is the reason for it (beyond the obvious one of basing one's self-esteem on the opinions of others)?
    Time efficiency. And how could I not like someone with such good taste?

  10. #140
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I think it's related to the fear of Death. Most people feel that they will cease to exist if other people don't appreciate/value/care for them. They are wrong.
    Do we die when our bodies die or when we stop mattering to anyone? How are we different from an inanimate object if we aren't affecting others?

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