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How Much Do You Identify With Your Circumstances?

prplchknz

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If you don't care about it, then why did you change to iNTP?

why are you following me around the forum?

I said I didn't care because I wasn't feeling like arguing with you. because you've made up your mind about my type. I've been here long enough to realize that people here think they know me way better than they actually do. and it's just simply easier not to talk about it.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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They give me a chance to at least take some pride in who I am, and some of the best life experiences that I've had (sexual/romantic) would've never occurred.

Wow, was that the only thing they liked about you? To me, that's damning with faint praise.

What would you say the identity of New Zealand is? I know they were the first country to grant women suffrage.


The importance of identity is underrated. Being landed with a fragmented identity is a sure way to drive someone into depression and despair.

That depends on what you value.
 

Kullervo

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Wow, was that the only thing they liked about you? To me, that's damning with faint praise.

What would you say the identity of New Zealand is? I know they were the first country to grant women suffrage.

You totally misread my comment. What I was saying was that if i wasn't straight, I wouldn't have experienced the relationships with women that I have. They have been positives generally.

What the national identity here is - if one exists at all - would be another topic in itself. I don't want to get into that.

That depends on what you value.

If people had nothing that could distinguish them from each other (the left wing version of heaven), everyone would quickly fall into a state of depression and inertia.
 

Kullervo

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It is controversial, no doubt. And I can get why you'd think that--it isn't like being Japanese, or German, where birthright alone gets you where you are. but I think it's also a part of what makes being a Texan so great. I was born in South Carolina--but I was raised here my whole life. We're not all made up of native Texans, and anyone can put on a cowboy hat and boots--and in fact we encourage that--but we're famous anyways because of that. Cowboys came from and lived all over the US, yet they're particularly famous here. Sure we have a lot of negative aspects that come with the state, everyone does, but overall if you want to be Texan just come be Texan. There are some things that separate us from people who came here of their own accord--we have particular ways of talking and slang language and accents that are unique to the area, and our homes and decor are very particularly.. er.. rustic. :D But it's a culture one can *become*.. which is a difficult thing to find for most people.

I'm particularly fond of French culture lately in my life, and although I love it--I will always be an outsider for France. I'll never be French, or seen as french, etc. etc. I just wasn't born into that, and nothing I can do will change that. The same story goes for Japanese culture. But.. I can walk in any day of the week and become a Texan and have people accept me for that. It's a great revolving door.

Being a member of a the national group doesn't improve your lot much, if at all, in the deeply liberal European countries, if what I noticed in London recently is any indication. The city has been pretty much all been bought by extremely wealthy Arabs, Russians and Jews. I assume what you mean is that the identity is exclusive, which is very important if it is to persist. In fact, in Texas your parentage is much more important than in Japan, let alone Germany in determining your future, the only difference is that it is entirely a class/monetary difference which people take somewhat less offense to. That's an aside but important to highlight.

What you need to consider is that if anyone could become French, or Japanese, those cultures would quickly lose what makes them unique. These peoples' identity would be lost, perhaps forever. The Japanese are aware that a culture is the product of (and tied to) the people who created it and their descendants, and hence the latter needs to be preserved for the former to be. This is why they have such a tight immigration system.
 

kyuuei

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What you need to consider is that if anyone could become French, or Japanese, those cultures would quickly lose what makes them unique. These peoples' identity would be lost, perhaps forever. The Japanese are aware that a culture is the product of (and tied to) the people who created it and their descendants, and hence the latter needs to be preserved for the former to be. This is why they have such a tight immigration system.

Ah. I don't disagree with that at all actually. If people said they were Japanese despite living there a single year and not really knowing the language or growing up in the area, it sort of defeats the purpose. I understand why I'll never be those cultures--and I respect it--but being someone that appreciates cultures that I will never be a part of.. I am glad that here in Texas it is a kind of culture that I definitely have as a part of me and I can identify with, despite not being born here by birthright. I know many Texans from other cities and countries that are really happy to be here, and assimilate into the culture of this state happily.. it's more flexible than something as concrete as nationality. Even though they could all clearly identify as American now.. they're more likely to say they're Texan, and imply American by association.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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If people had nothing that could distinguish them from each other (the left wing version of heaven), everyone would quickly fall into a state of depression and inertia.

Based on what? How do you know this to be so? I do notice that having things that distinguish them from others does not always preclude people from being depressed. Not that I can name anyone in particular.
 
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Probably more than I'd like.

I've moved places, been in environments where life was 1000% times easier in every respect, so I definitely think sometimes, your surroundings are against you.
 

Kullervo

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Based on what? How do you know this to be so? I do notice that having things that distinguish them from others does not always preclude people from being depressed. Not that I can name anyone in particular.

Clearly it takes an INTJ to realise a world where everyone is the same would be insufferably boring.

People can be depressed for all sorts of reasons, and I have never suggested that identity issues are the only reason one can be depressed; only that as identity is what makes you who you are, a conflicting identity or a lack of certain aspects are a cause.
 

Qlip

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I completely identify with my circumstances. A lower middle-class Hispanic who doesn't speak Spanish, isn't Catholic, a family passion for technology and grew up practically in Atzlan of 6 of 7 children of tired parents born bored and free, when not unreasonably fettered on rare and unpredictable occasions. My tribe is small.
 

Coriolis

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Ultimately, I think this debate boils down to, does a person seek external validation and outside forces to form their identity or do they venture inward, ruminating and questioning preexisting beliefs that were impressed upon them. Not that a person should be a vacuum that is impenetrable from the outside, but if they are nothing more than a mirror reflecting cultural ideals or whatever group they're "supposed" to belong to, that's not much of a personal identity. It's a caricature.
Sounds a bit like external vs. internal locus of control.

Probably due to my narcissism, being in a foreign country doesn't really effect how I perceive myself, save the observation that the people around me and their customs are different. Because I am in their country, that doesn't threaten me and I instead find it interesting. I disagree that you can tell much about someone based on their nationality and ethnicity; there are a few assumptions one can make but not that many. I know that simply from being so radically different in my political orientation and musical interests to everyone around me, but fit in in other ways. Though, being different isn't something i relish, quite the contrary.
Your earlier posts present a different view, namely that nationality and ethnicity are of paramount importance in understanding someone and his/her place in the world. So which is it?

Now I am going to be controversial. To me, "Texan" is not a valid identity, because it has no biological element. Anyone can, potentially, take it on, therefore it isn't unique to any group of individuals. Only a select group of people - if anyone at all - can have any part of my identity, which automatically raises its value. This view will be controversial to Americans, but to persist, an identity must be grounded in biology and hence exclusive. Exclusivity is what makes your identity special on every level.
To me, the identities I have chosen are far more meaningful than those I was simply born into. The latter tell the superficialities of my life, the packaging; while the former tell about the "real me" inside. Of course inborn identities can take on greater significance if we also choose to pursue them, whether that be our ethnic heritage, or musical talent. On the other hand, failure to identify with some part of our inherited identity is not necessarily (and probably rarely) self-hatred. It is more likely simple indifference to one of the many things that has not captured our attention. Having brown hair is a relatively insignificant part of who I am, but I neither hate brunettes, nor envy blondes.

Whether you identify strongly with the group parts of your identity or not, they are still parts of who you are and have impacts on others.
This is true, largely because of the assumptions and prejudices of others. It behooves us to be aware of these, so we are not blindsided by unexpected reactions, but it says far more about those "impacted others" than about us.

If people had nothing that could distinguish them from each other (the left wing version of heaven), everyone would quickly fall into a state of depression and inertia.
Exactly which "left wing" groups favor making humans indistinguishable one from another? It probably takes an INTJ much older than you to realise a world where everyone is the same is a physical impossibility. Just take any relatively homogeneous ethnic or cultural population. You will find within it huge diversity in talents, interests, preferences, and personality, not to mention physical differences.

What you need to consider is that if anyone could become French, or Japanese, those cultures would quickly lose what makes them unique. These peoples' identity would be lost, perhaps forever. The Japanese are aware that a culture is the product of (and tied to) the people who created it and their descendants, and hence the latter needs to be preserved for the former to be. This is why they have such a tight immigration system.
Many professions, hobbies, sports, and other pursuits have distinct and readily identifiable cultures despite being open to broad ranges of inborn groups, so this argument doesn't hold water. Indeed, many people marry into ethnic groups, and then work to preserve that culture, along with their new family.

As for the OP:
How much does your sex/gender, national origin or race factor into your sense of identity? If you hypothetically woke up in a different body that is not in your current state, how much would it effect your self-perception and identity? Would your values drastically change? I suppose you could include class or socioeconomic status, but that would probably have the most profound effect on one's lifestyle.
If the only thing that changed was my physical body, my self-perception would change only to the degree that others reacted differently to me, which could be significant, depending on my new body and my environment.

I believe I've always identified myself more by my interests and aspirations than anything out of my control. If my gender or national origin was different, it may have a positive impact on my life (due to cultural values clashing with my personality). I think being a different race would have the biggest effect in a negative way, as a result of prejudices and the stigma attached to belonging to a minority. I've never had a strong desire to adopt a group identity. Even when participating in activities that I enjoy with people of similar interests, I have a certain aversion to assimilating into a defined association.
I agree with this for the most part. I suppose I don't so much assimilate into defined associations, as that would impy something about me changes, as I willingly identify with associations that are consistent with who I am and what I want out of life.
 

Kullervo

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Your earlier posts present a different view, namely that nationality and ethnicity are of paramount importance in understanding someone and his/her place in the world. So which is it?

Relevant to this discussion (identity), the main thing it determines is where you can live.

To me, the identities I have chosen are far more meaningful than those I was simply born into. The latter tell the superficialities of my life, the packaging; while the former tell about the "real me" inside. Of course inborn identities can take on greater significance if we also choose to pursue them, whether that be our ethnic heritage, or musical talent. On the other hand, failure to identify with some part of our inherited identity is not necessarily (and probably rarely) self-hatred. It is more likely simple indifference to one of the many things that has not captured our attention. Having brown hair is a relatively insignificant part of who I am, but I neither hate brunettes, nor envy blondes.

In everyday life, these kinds of things do matter the most. I have never said that biological group associations are the only thing that differentiates you from (or you have in common with) someone else. But because it is a part of you, active rejection is a form of self hatred no different than if you were ashamed of another part of your identity. As I mentioned, Northern European (descended) societies have uniquely entrenched individualistic ways of thinking such as Protestantism, liberalism that lead to a reluctance to think of anyone as a part of a group. It is nice but highly impractical.

Hair colour on its own doesn't interest me much (though I prefer brunettes actually, you never know whether blondes are dyed or not), it is the combined whole of physical and cultural traits associated with a group that give it worth. I identify very much with traditional, high Western culture. If you enjoy this, then you have at least one reason for preserving the people who this culture belongs to. Its destiny is tied to ours.

This is true, largely because of the assumptions and prejudices of others. It behooves us to be aware of these, so we are not blindsided by unexpected reactions, but it says far more about those "impacted others" than about us.

You misread that comment. What I meant to say here was that even if you don't identify with the group part of your identity, it still exists and needs to be taken into consideration. It is not prejudice to recognise that there are differences between people as well as similarities, and I don't apologise for being good at picking up on them.

Many professions, hobbies, sports, and other pursuits have distinct and readily identifiable cultures despite being open to broad ranges of inborn groups, so this argument doesn't hold water. Indeed, many people marry into ethnic groups, and then work to preserve that culture, along with their new family.

Your profession, interests and experiences form a part of the individual aspect of your identity, which is different to what we are talking about - the part of your identity related to the family and ethnicity you were born into.

I mention again: both are important to me. But nobody disputes that individual aspects to identity are exclusive (or even exist at all), so I don't need to mention them much. Ethnic identity is by definition non-transferable. If this was not the case, there would be no such thing as French or Japanese culture, which anyone who has been to these countries would know.
 

Bullet

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Sounds a bit like external vs. internal locus of control.

To me, the identities I have chosen are far more meaningful than those I was simply born into. The latter tell the superficialities of my life, the packaging; while the former tell about the "real me" inside. Of course inborn identities can take on greater significance if we also choose to pursue them, whether that be our ethnic heritage, or musical talent. On the other hand, failure to identify with some part of our inherited identity is not necessarily (and probably rarely) self-hatred. It is more likely simple indifference to one of the many things that has not captured our attention. Having brown hair is a relatively insignificant part of who I am, but I neither hate brunettes, nor envy blondes.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. It's not that I'm unaware of the circumstances which I was born into and the fact that, to some extent, they have influenced my perceptions, but I don't heavily identify with those traits or place much value on them because they're involuntary. They don't define me. It's absurd that someone would consider that a form of self-hatred. I think a large degree of bigotry and violence in the world is the result of people over-identifying with these traits and using it as justification to subjugate others outside of their group. On a smaller scale, we see this at sporting events that erupt into riots. At the core of these emotionally tumultuous upheavals are people over-identifying with their designated groups which they all subjectively believe to be better than the others because they belong to it.
 

Kullervo

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Yes, this is what I was getting at. It's not that I'm unaware of the circumstances which I was born into and the fact that, to some extent, they have influenced my perceptions, but I don't heavily identify with those traits or place much value on them because they're involuntary. They don't define me. It's absurd that someone would consider that a form of self-hatred. I think a large degree of bigotry and violence in the world is the result of people over-identifying with these traits and using it as justification to subjugate others outside of their group. On a smaller scale, we see this at sporting events that erupt into riots. At the core of these emotionally tumultuous upheavals are people over-identifying with their designated groups which they all subjectively believe to be better than the others because they belong to it.

So we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya then?

My point is that your identity has multiple layers, it consists of the past (your familial and ethnic history), the present (experiences and relationships) and the future (your goals and dreams). Identity has genetic and experiential components, the combination is what makes it so exclusive to you. If you reject your family (or more commonly) your ethnicity, you've cut yourself off from your foundations. That is a form of self-hatred.

Reject the past for idealistic visions of embracing all humanity, and you will destroy all around you.
 

Bullet

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So we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya then?

My point is that your identity has multiple layers, it consists of the past (your familial and ethnic history), the present (experiences and relationships) and the future (your goals and dreams). Identity has genetic and experiential components, the combination is what makes it so exclusive to you. If you reject your family (or more commonly) your ethnicity, you've cut yourself off from your foundations. That is a form of self-hatred.

Reject the past for idealistic visions of embracing all humanity, and you will destroy all around you.

I know very little about my heritage because my paternal grandfather was adopted and his last name was changed. I believe my family has English, Dutch and German ancestry, but I don't care enough to research my family tree. I'm not close to my extended family and my roots have no relevance to my life or sense of identity. It has nothing to do with self-hatred, but pure apathy. Knowing who my descendants were isn't going to positively impact my present or future. Why should I give it any significance at all?
 

Red Herring

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I completely identify with my circumstances. A lower middle-class Hispanic who doesn't speak Spanish, isn't Catholic, a family passion for technology and grew up practically in Atzlan of 6 of 7 children of tired parents born bored and free, when not unreasonably fettered on rare and unpredictable occasions. My tribe is small.

Lol. I'm the oldest of 3 children of divorced college educated liberal atheist middle class parents in a protestant-secular middle class environment. Oh, and a German in Germany (still got the "proof of Aryan acenstry" of my grandparents from the nazi years). Overall that makes for quite a protected/priviledged environment compared to some others. Most days I am not even aware of my gender either ... until some idiot or other reminds me of it :coffee:
 

Nicodemus

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Schopenhauer time:

On the other hand, the cheapest form of pride is national pride; for the man affected therewith betrays a want of indivudual qualities of which he might be proud, since he would not otherwise resort to that which he shares with so many millions. The man who possesses outstanding personal qualities will rather see most clearly the faults of his own nation, for he has them constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool, who has nothing in the world whereof he could be proud, resorts finally to being proud of the very nation to which he belongs. In this he finds compensation and is now ready and thankful to defend, … all the faults and follies peculiar to it.
 

Kullervo

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I know very little about my heritage because my paternal grandfather was adopted and his last name was changed. I believe my family has English, Dutch and German ancestry, but I don't care enough to research my family tree. I'm not close to my extended family and my roots have no relevance to my life or sense of identity. It has nothing to do with self-hatred, but pure ambivalence. Knowing who my descendants were isn't going to positively impact my present or future. Why give it any significance at all?

I know a lot more about my heritage than you clearly do, and I am proud of it. That it would influence my identity shouldn't be surprising.

I wish to influence who my descendants will be, because I want my grandchildren to look like me and not some drug dealer from Africa.
 
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