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  1. #71
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    In everyday life, these kinds of things do matter the most. I have never said that biological group associations are the only thing that differentiates you from (or you have in common with) someone else. But because it is a part of you, active rejection is a form of self hatred no different than if you were ashamed of another part of your identity.
    Not at all. Hatred is an emotion. Choosing to focus little time and energy on one's ethnic or cultural heritage is a decision that can be based on such an emotion, or on a more reasoned consideration of one's values and interests. At some point I completely rejected the religion of my heritage. There was a period of time during which I felt very resentful toward it for many reasons. Now that I have moved on and found the spirituality right for me, I can view it in a much more neutral or even positive light, though I still reject it for myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    If you enjoy this, then you have at least one reason for preserving the people who this culture belongs to. Its destiny is tied to ours.
    It makes more sense to preserve the culture than the people. Often the two go hand in hand, but the world is full of ethnic groups who have lost their cultural traditions. Ensuring that those populations continue won't bring back the lost languages and practices. People not native to the culture, however, can and do sometimes take an interest in it, and contribute significantly to its preservation and promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Ethnic identity is by definition non-transferable. If this was not the case, there would be no such thing as French or Japanese culture, which anyone who has been to these countries would know.
    I disagree. Ethnic identity is sometimes taken on by people who marry into a different culture, or otherwise choose to become part of it (e.g. missionaries like Mother Teresa).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    You misread that comment. What I meant to say here was that even if you don't identify with the group part of your identity, it still exists and needs to be taken into consideration. It is not prejudice to recognise that there are differences between people as well as similarities, and I don't apologise for being good at picking up on them.
    It is prejudice to assume that, where one difference exists, others will necessariliy follow. If you see a black man, for instance, all you can conclude about him from that observation is that he is black.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    So we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya then?
    Sometimes that is exactly the thing to do. It's better than killing each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I know a lot more about my heritage than you clearly do, and I am proud of it. That it would influence my identity shouldn't be surprising.
    That it influences your identity as strongly as it does is your choice, and your prerogative.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    “Whatsoever a man is, is due to his make, and to the influences brought to bear upon it by his heredities, his habitat, his associations. He is moved, directed, commanded, by exterior influences—solely. He originates nothing, not even a thought.”

    -Mark Twain
    I call bullshit. Humans have a free will and the choices we make will influence our circumstances. That's not to say that everything is within our control, but we're not entirely governed by outside forces. That sort of thinking absolves people of any responsibility for their actions.

  3. #73
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    I call bullshit. Humans have a free will and the choices we make will influence our circumstances. That's not to say that everything is within our control, but we're not entirely governed by outside forces. That sort of thinking absolves people of any responsibility for their actions.
    The catch is: we can consciously choose a number of circumstances.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not at all. Hatred is an emotion. Choosing to focus little time and energy on one's ethnic or cultural heritage is a decision that can be based on such an emotion, or on a more reasoned consideration of one's values and interests. At some point I completely rejected the religion of my heritage. There was a period of time during which I felt very resentful toward it for many reasons. Now that I have moved on and found the spirituality right for me, I can view it in a much more neutral or even positive light, though I still reject it for myself.
    My point was that rejection of the self is a psychopathology. The self (your identity) has multiple components which I've mentioned in previous posts. From my observations, outright rejection of ethnic identity always has an emotional undercurrent, but if it didn't, I could easily show people other reasons why it is irrational. So to sum up: even if you don't identify with cultural aspects of your ethnicity, it is still a part of your biology and a way in which you are different from other people (which helps form identity: "how am i unique?").

    I am an atheist for logical reasons, but if I wanted, I could find multiple ethnicity-based justifications for rejection of Christianity. I don't need them, but they exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It makes more sense to preserve the culture than the people. Often the two go hand in hand, but the world is full of ethnic groups who have lost their cultural traditions. Ensuring that those populations continue won't bring back the lost languages and practices. People not native to the culture, however, can and do sometimes take an interest in it, and contribute significantly to its preservation and promotion.

    I disagree. Ethnic identity is sometimes taken on by people who marry into a different culture, or otherwise choose to become part of it (e.g. missionaries like Mother Teresa).
    A people and their culture are tied together. If this was not the case, when the demography of a country changed its culture would remain the same. There is no reason to support your point of view on a macro level. Obsession with individualism is part of the problem; I am almost tempted to start a thread on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is prejudice to assume that, where one difference exists, others will necessariliy follow. If you see a black man, for instance, all you can conclude about him from that observation is that he is black.
    Traits are associated with each other; for example, statistics suggest that you are more likely to be robbed, raped or killed by a black man than a white man. Therefore it is not irrational to be more cautious in the presence of a black man than you would a white man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sometimes that is exactly the thing to do. It's better than killing each other.
    People will always kill each other. The difference is that while my view leads to peace through war, yours leads to war through peace.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    The self (your identity) has multiple components which I've mentioned in previous posts. From my observations, outright rejection of ethnic identity always has an emotional undercurrent, but if it didn't, I could easily show people other reasons why it is irrational.
    Would you mind explaining what the ethnic component of an identity is, perhaps by telling us about yours? I would also like to learn some of the reasons as to why it is always irrational to reject one's 'ethnic identity'.

  6. #76
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Well, I have multiple citizenships but I only really relate to the most recent because I've lived here the longest - 15 years (as of today, yay, anniversary!) and whilst I do love this country, I don't identify with all parts of it - only the area I live in. I always notice how different other areas are when I move/go on road trips. I was sitting in a cafe a few days ago daydreaming and I realised that I dress like everyone here, I talk like everyone, I have their attitude toward life, - I even listen to the same music. When I compare myself to my family friends who've had similar circumstances but live in a different area to me, I realise how much I don't identify with my race, ethnicity and nationality. I tend to actually forget ethnicity most of the time unless someone asks which is why I don't volunteer that information.

    As for sex, I used to identify with being a female a lot because of my gyno-centric educational background (girls' school) but not so much these days.

    I do identify strongly with my interests.

  7. #77
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I really don't know that it's possible to say how much influence what I am has over who I am or how I view things since I've always been me and have no experience being someone else...

    I am from a mixed background, some of the national identities being associated with horrible actions and others being associated with being the victims or unwanted people... it's a background of people who weren't rich, but were generally educated above their socioeconomic status as knowledge has been stressed intergenerationally as the most important thing to gain... knowledge can get you things that you want and give you leverage. on that note, I don't look different from the majority, so no reactions based on background physically...

    gender has had a bigger impact on treatment received from others than on how I have decided how I should behave. my natural behavior tendencies are more masculine, though I enjoy being a woman physically... there's occasional resistance to females behaving in certain manners, but that speaks more of the judger in that situation to me

    I identify mostly with my brain and abilities... what I can do and how well I can do things definitely shape my image of myself... I know what I can do and how quickly I can figure things out and I also am fairly aware of my weak points by now and that's something that I can work with
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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