User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 77

  1. #51
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    CROW
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII None
    Posts
    9,047

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Clearly it is an INTJ problem to view a world where everyone is the same to be insufferably boring.
    I am not arguing for that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  2. #52
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    I completely identify with my circumstances. A lower middle-class Hispanic who doesn't speak Spanish, isn't Catholic, a family passion for technology and grew up practically in Atzlan of 6 of 7 children of tired parents born bored and free, when not unreasonably fettered on rare and unpredictable occasions. My tribe is small.

  3. #53
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Ultimately, I think this debate boils down to, does a person seek external validation and outside forces to form their identity or do they venture inward, ruminating and questioning preexisting beliefs that were impressed upon them. Not that a person should be a vacuum that is impenetrable from the outside, but if they are nothing more than a mirror reflecting cultural ideals or whatever group they're "supposed" to belong to, that's not much of a personal identity. It's a caricature.
    Sounds a bit like external vs. internal locus of control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Probably due to my narcissism, being in a foreign country doesn't really effect how I perceive myself, save the observation that the people around me and their customs are different. Because I am in their country, that doesn't threaten me and I instead find it interesting. I disagree that you can tell much about someone based on their nationality and ethnicity; there are a few assumptions one can make but not that many. I know that simply from being so radically different in my political orientation and musical interests to everyone around me, but fit in in other ways. Though, being different isn't something i relish, quite the contrary.
    Your earlier posts present a different view, namely that nationality and ethnicity are of paramount importance in understanding someone and his/her place in the world. So which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Now I am going to be controversial. To me, "Texan" is not a valid identity, because it has no biological element. Anyone can, potentially, take it on, therefore it isn't unique to any group of individuals. Only a select group of people - if anyone at all - can have any part of my identity, which automatically raises its value. This view will be controversial to Americans, but to persist, an identity must be grounded in biology and hence exclusive. Exclusivity is what makes your identity special on every level.
    To me, the identities I have chosen are far more meaningful than those I was simply born into. The latter tell the superficialities of my life, the packaging; while the former tell about the "real me" inside. Of course inborn identities can take on greater significance if we also choose to pursue them, whether that be our ethnic heritage, or musical talent. On the other hand, failure to identify with some part of our inherited identity is not necessarily (and probably rarely) self-hatred. It is more likely simple indifference to one of the many things that has not captured our attention. Having brown hair is a relatively insignificant part of who I am, but I neither hate brunettes, nor envy blondes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Whether you identify strongly with the group parts of your identity or not, they are still parts of who you are and have impacts on others.
    This is true, largely because of the assumptions and prejudices of others. It behooves us to be aware of these, so we are not blindsided by unexpected reactions, but it says far more about those "impacted others" than about us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    If people had nothing that could distinguish them from each other (the left wing version of heaven), everyone would quickly fall into a state of depression and inertia.
    Exactly which "left wing" groups favor making humans indistinguishable one from another? It probably takes an INTJ much older than you to realise a world where everyone is the same is a physical impossibility. Just take any relatively homogeneous ethnic or cultural population. You will find within it huge diversity in talents, interests, preferences, and personality, not to mention physical differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What you need to consider is that if anyone could become French, or Japanese, those cultures would quickly lose what makes them unique. These peoples' identity would be lost, perhaps forever. The Japanese are aware that a culture is the product of (and tied to) the people who created it and their descendants, and hence the latter needs to be preserved for the former to be. This is why they have such a tight immigration system.
    Many professions, hobbies, sports, and other pursuits have distinct and readily identifiable cultures despite being open to broad ranges of inborn groups, so this argument doesn't hold water. Indeed, many people marry into ethnic groups, and then work to preserve that culture, along with their new family.

    As for the OP:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    How much does your sex/gender, national origin or race factor into your sense of identity? If you hypothetically woke up in a different body that is not in your current state, how much would it effect your self-perception and identity? Would your values drastically change? I suppose you could include class or socioeconomic status, but that would probably have the most profound effect on one's lifestyle.
    If the only thing that changed was my physical body, my self-perception would change only to the degree that others reacted differently to me, which could be significant, depending on my new body and my environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    I believe I've always identified myself more by my interests and aspirations than anything out of my control. If my gender or national origin was different, it may have a positive impact on my life (due to cultural values clashing with my personality). I think being a different race would have the biggest effect in a negative way, as a result of prejudices and the stigma attached to belonging to a minority. I've never had a strong desire to adopt a group identity. Even when participating in activities that I enjoy with people of similar interests, I have a certain aversion to assimilating into a defined association.
    I agree with this for the most part. I suppose I don't so much assimilate into defined associations, as that would impy something about me changes, as I willingly identify with associations that are consistent with who I am and what I want out of life.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #54
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2014
    MBTI
    N/A
    Socionics
    EIE Ni
    Posts
    3,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Your earlier posts present a different view, namely that nationality and ethnicity are of paramount importance in understanding someone and his/her place in the world. So which is it?
    Relevant to this discussion (identity), the main thing it determines is where you can live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To me, the identities I have chosen are far more meaningful than those I was simply born into. The latter tell the superficialities of my life, the packaging; while the former tell about the "real me" inside. Of course inborn identities can take on greater significance if we also choose to pursue them, whether that be our ethnic heritage, or musical talent. On the other hand, failure to identify with some part of our inherited identity is not necessarily (and probably rarely) self-hatred. It is more likely simple indifference to one of the many things that has not captured our attention. Having brown hair is a relatively insignificant part of who I am, but I neither hate brunettes, nor envy blondes.
    In everyday life, these kinds of things do matter the most. I have never said that biological group associations are the only thing that differentiates you from (or you have in common with) someone else. But because it is a part of you, active rejection is a form of self hatred no different than if you were ashamed of another part of your identity. As I mentioned, Northern European (descended) societies have uniquely entrenched individualistic ways of thinking such as Protestantism, liberalism that lead to a reluctance to think of anyone as a part of a group. It is nice but highly impractical.

    Hair colour on its own doesn't interest me much (though I prefer brunettes actually, you never know whether blondes are dyed or not), it is the combined whole of physical and cultural traits associated with a group that give it worth. I identify very much with traditional, high Western culture. If you enjoy this, then you have at least one reason for preserving the people who this culture belongs to. Its destiny is tied to ours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is true, largely because of the assumptions and prejudices of others. It behooves us to be aware of these, so we are not blindsided by unexpected reactions, but it says far more about those "impacted others" than about us.
    You misread that comment. What I meant to say here was that even if you don't identify with the group part of your identity, it still exists and needs to be taken into consideration. It is not prejudice to recognise that there are differences between people as well as similarities, and I don't apologise for being good at picking up on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Many professions, hobbies, sports, and other pursuits have distinct and readily identifiable cultures despite being open to broad ranges of inborn groups, so this argument doesn't hold water. Indeed, many people marry into ethnic groups, and then work to preserve that culture, along with their new family.
    Your profession, interests and experiences form a part of the individual aspect of your identity, which is different to what we are talking about - the part of your identity related to the family and ethnicity you were born into.

    I mention again: both are important to me. But nobody disputes that individual aspects to identity are exclusive (or even exist at all), so I don't need to mention them much. Ethnic identity is by definition non-transferable. If this was not the case, there would be no such thing as French or Japanese culture, which anyone who has been to these countries would know.

  5. #55
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    241

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sounds a bit like external vs. internal locus of control.

    To me, the identities I have chosen are far more meaningful than those I was simply born into. The latter tell the superficialities of my life, the packaging; while the former tell about the "real me" inside. Of course inborn identities can take on greater significance if we also choose to pursue them, whether that be our ethnic heritage, or musical talent. On the other hand, failure to identify with some part of our inherited identity is not necessarily (and probably rarely) self-hatred. It is more likely simple indifference to one of the many things that has not captured our attention. Having brown hair is a relatively insignificant part of who I am, but I neither hate brunettes, nor envy blondes.
    Yes, this is what I was getting at. It's not that I'm unaware of the circumstances which I was born into and the fact that, to some extent, they have influenced my perceptions, but I don't heavily identify with those traits or place much value on them because they're involuntary. They don't define me. It's absurd that someone would consider that a form of self-hatred. I think a large degree of bigotry and violence in the world is the result of people over-identifying with these traits and using it as justification to subjugate others outside of their group. On a smaller scale, we see this at sporting events that erupt into riots. At the core of these emotionally tumultuous upheavals are people over-identifying with their designated groups which they all subjectively believe to be better than the others because they belong to it.

  6. #56
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2014
    MBTI
    N/A
    Socionics
    EIE Ni
    Posts
    3,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Yes, this is what I was getting at. It's not that I'm unaware of the circumstances which I was born into and the fact that, to some extent, they have influenced my perceptions, but I don't heavily identify with those traits or place much value on them because they're involuntary. They don't define me. It's absurd that someone would consider that a form of self-hatred. I think a large degree of bigotry and violence in the world is the result of people over-identifying with these traits and using it as justification to subjugate others outside of their group. On a smaller scale, we see this at sporting events that erupt into riots. At the core of these emotionally tumultuous upheavals are people over-identifying with their designated groups which they all subjectively believe to be better than the others because they belong to it.
    So we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya then?

    My point is that your identity has multiple layers, it consists of the past (your familial and ethnic history), the present (experiences and relationships) and the future (your goals and dreams). Identity has genetic and experiential components, the combination is what makes it so exclusive to you. If you reject your family (or more commonly) your ethnicity, you've cut yourself off from your foundations. That is a form of self-hatred.

    Reject the past for idealistic visions of embracing all humanity, and you will destroy all around you.

  7. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    241

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    So we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya then?

    My point is that your identity has multiple layers, it consists of the past (your familial and ethnic history), the present (experiences and relationships) and the future (your goals and dreams). Identity has genetic and experiential components, the combination is what makes it so exclusive to you. If you reject your family (or more commonly) your ethnicity, you've cut yourself off from your foundations. That is a form of self-hatred.

    Reject the past for idealistic visions of embracing all humanity, and you will destroy all around you.
    I know very little about my heritage because my paternal grandfather was adopted and his last name was changed. I believe my family has English, Dutch and German ancestry, but I don't care enough to research my family tree. I'm not close to my extended family and my roots have no relevance to my life or sense of identity. It has nothing to do with self-hatred, but pure apathy. Knowing who my descendants were isn't going to positively impact my present or future. Why should I give it any significance at all?

  8. #58
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,647

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I completely identify with my circumstances. A lower middle-class Hispanic who doesn't speak Spanish, isn't Catholic, a family passion for technology and grew up practically in Atzlan of 6 of 7 children of tired parents born bored and free, when not unreasonably fettered on rare and unpredictable occasions. My tribe is small.
    Lol. I'm the oldest of 3 children of divorced college educated liberal atheist middle class parents in a protestant-secular middle class environment. Oh, and a German in Germany (still got the "proof of Aryan acenstry" of my grandparents from the nazi years). Overall that makes for quite a protected/priviledged environment compared to some others. Most days I am not even aware of my gender either ... until some idiot or other reminds me of it
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
    A herring's blog
    Johari / Nohari

  9. #59
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    9,130

    Default

    Schopenhauer time:

    On the other hand, the cheapest form of pride is national pride; for the man affected therewith betrays a want of indivudual qualities of which he might be proud, since he would not otherwise resort to that which he shares with so many millions. The man who possesses outstanding personal qualities will rather see most clearly the faults of his own nation, for he has them constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool, who has nothing in the world whereof he could be proud, resorts finally to being proud of the very nation to which he belongs. In this he finds compensation and is now ready and thankful to defend, … all the faults and follies peculiar to it.

  10. #60
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2014
    MBTI
    N/A
    Socionics
    EIE Ni
    Posts
    3,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    I know very little about my heritage because my paternal grandfather was adopted and his last name was changed. I believe my family has English, Dutch and German ancestry, but I don't care enough to research my family tree. I'm not close to my extended family and my roots have no relevance to my life or sense of identity. It has nothing to do with self-hatred, but pure ambivalence. Knowing who my descendants were isn't going to positively impact my present or future. Why give it any significance at all?
    I know a lot more about my heritage than you clearly do, and I am proud of it. That it would influence my identity shouldn't be surprising.

    I wish to influence who my descendants will be, because I want my grandchildren to look like me and not some drug dealer from Africa.

Similar Threads

  1. [Si] Wherever you have Si in your stack of pancakes, how do you identify with it?
    By Dreamer in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-02-2016, 12:34 AM
  2. How much do you identify with others of your type?
    By 011235813 in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 07-09-2013, 04:37 PM
  3. How much do you relate to your type's profile?
    By Asterion in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 09:41 AM
  4. Replies: 60
    Last Post: 03-03-2009, 02:28 AM
  5. [SJ] How strongly do you identify with the SJ/Guardian temperament?
    By sassafrassquatch in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 08-06-2008, 02:48 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO