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  1. #11
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Yes. There has been a lot of myth-making about the Maori being indigenous since identity politics started in the 70s. In reality they killed the indigenous people of New Zealand, who themselves didn't ever colonise a good deal of country. The Maoris have been in NZ around the same time that, for example, the Turks have in Anatolia.

    I only state the fact that my family played a part in making NZ a unified political entity, a country. Despite this, I have said before on the forum that I would be happy to move to Europe if all the non European people currently living there left. But that's not happening anytime soon so I don't feel like a hypocrite, especially seeing i have a lot more connection to where I live than they do to Europe.

    FTR: A good deal of NZ wasn't inhabited until 1855 on, when the gold rushes started.

    These people? Moriori people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Or is it more the celtic side of things?

    On a personal level I put little attachment to what my ancestors did or who was where first in regards to melanin counts or different cultures mainly because I had no part in it and claiming I did is beyond irrational. I see is as a kind of territorial insanity in which an invisible ownership defined without law or right is perceived as being threatened by an invisible force also without real defined motive.

    This doesn't mean I don't deny that at some point my country or many others might change in terms of racial population, (as inaccurate as the term race is in this context), but why that should be anything but just another change as has occurred in history again and again?

    The application of that being good or bad is a valuation that comes more from whether or not there are actually damaging effects of that change. If for example the population of the UK became majority... African in ancestry but the general cultures of its countries stayed the same or it changed but there is no discernable negative impact for the people inhabiting them, besides the issues that are already present, where is the actual issue?

    Now with regards to history it's fascinating to study how a culture or people evolves as it goes and what lies or truths are told or buried.

    And it is interesting to see what ramifications that could, or has, have later on. But I don't look at it as something I should feel is being threatened because of an attachment to what my past genetics did.

    However this is just my personal view.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    WTF does "Moriroriro" have to do with the thread title?

    Back on topic. I identify with my home life better than I used to. I don't identify with my work life where I am just a thing generating statistics. Many moons ago I thought I could identify with a foreign culture better than this one, or with living in 1950s conservative America because I felt like everybody in this country behaved in such a non-ideal manner. But that was based on my perception of the 1950s gained from watching Leave It To Beaver.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  3. #13
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    How much does your sex/gender, national origin or race factor into your sense of identity? If you hypothetically woke up in a different body that is not in your current state, how much would it effect your self-perception and identity? Would your values drastically change? I suppose you could include class or socioeconomic status, but that would probably have the most profound effect on one's lifestyle.
    I think anyone who thinks their gender, sex, culture, and national origin isn't some of the main influences on their lives is delusional. Anyone who doesn't believe me can just ask anyone trying to escape their country, change their sex, or marry their spouse. Whether you're rebelling against them, or embracing aspects of them, they play into your life all the time. Constantly.

    If I grew up anywhere but in my household I'd be a completely different person. Maybe I wouldn't value family as much if my family were all assholes. Probably wouldn't have had to struggle with all the female things I dealt with growing up if I grew up male--but I'd also probably not be as ambitious either since those struggles are what made me who I am. If I wasn't American I don't know what I'd have done elsewhere. I could see myself being a pretty typical European had I grown up there. Easily. I may not appreciate other cultures as much since I never bothered to travel and wasn't exposed to them growing up, so I care more about actively seeking them out now. Maybe I wouldn't care about football at all if I'd not grown up in Texas.

    The list goes on and on.
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  4. #14

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    I believe that our past circumstances along with our nature upon conception largely make us who we are at the current moment. I am unsure to what extent our wills are involved or in some sense illusions.

    Nevertheless, I believe if my circumstances were different in the past, I would be a different person now. However, if my past were exactly the same as it was before, and I was suddenly transported to different circumstances, I would be the same person at that moment. This being said, the person I become later would be different than if I stayed in my very same circumstances.

    I believe there is often a "bubble of circumstance" that follow people of similar physical characteristics in a particular society. If particular societies consider certain features "beautiful", not matter where the child was transported, as long as it is with the same standards of "beauty", that aspect of their bubble of circumstance would stay the same. Similarly regarding things like "smart", or "athletic", or even "big" or "small". As long as the macroscopic circumstance in this case, makes their own characteristics relate in the same way, the same aspect of their bubble remains.

    Now if someone who would be considered "big and strong" were transplanted to a place where they were "tiny and weak", this is a very different situation, and I think one that would be quite frustrating for this person. I think a similar situation exists for someone considered "smart" being transplanted to a context where they are suddenly "dumb".

    To add to this point, I think people "invest" in the qualities about themselves that they believe give them an advantage or a niche in their world. Somebody considered "tiny and weak", as well as "strange", and "funny looking", and "smart" would likely invest in using his or her intelligence to get by. Unless he or she came upon a way to use the other "traits" as advantages, they are likely to divest in the realms that value those types of things, and use those resources to build in a realm they believe will be more fruitful. For more information from people who believe as I do, look up "Social Investment Theory", and in particular (Evaluating Five Factor Theory and social investment perspectives on personality trait development, and Personality Development in the Context of the Neo-Socioanalytic Model of Personality.).

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  5. #15
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    My identity is intrinsic. I don't need to think about it, worry about defining it, etc. It's always just been something that's part of me that forms on its own and is what it is.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  6. #16
    is indra's Avatar
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    don't think one bit about my circumstance

    probably 'cause i'm a young white male living in america


  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think anyone who thinks their gender, sex, culture, and national origin isn't some of the main influences on their lives is delusional. Anyone who doesn't believe me can just ask anyone trying to escape their country, change their sex, or marry their spouse. Whether you're rebelling against them, or embracing aspects of them, they play into your life all the time. Constantly.
    You misunderstood me. I wasn't claiming that these qualities don't influence one's life or perspective of the world. How could they not? I'm asking, to what extent, do those qualities factor into your sense of identity? Is it something that pervades your self-concept? I get the feeling that if some people who heavily identify with their race, gender or national origin were suddenly stripped of that, their entire ego would collapse because every fiber of their being rests upon it. I don't put much value in any of those "attributes." I view them as arbitrary and not pertinent to my personality. Sure...they have influenced how I've developed in some capacities, particularly in relation to my environment and what societal norms dictate. But for me, personally, I put very little importance on those traits. If someone asked me to describe myself, or as a former classmate would say, "What are you about?" I don't think I would even reference my race, gender or citizenship because it doesn't really tell them anything about who I am as a person. Whereas, the way some people constantly talk about their gender, race or brag about how great their country is, you'd think they have no separate identity apart from those qualities, as if they were forged out of some kind of pre-determined mold. Also, heavily identifying with these impersonal factors leads to a lot of elitism, discrimination and bigotry in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Probably wouldn't have had to struggle with all the female things I dealt with growing up if I grew up male--but I'd also probably not be as ambitious either since those struggles are what made me who I am.
    No, you wouldn't. But you would have to struggle with a whole different set of double-standards and hardships that men have to put up with. And then when you complain about it, you will get told to "man up" as though your feelings or concerns have no validity. Such is life, I guess.

  8. #18
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    You misunderstood me. I wasn't claiming that these qualities don't influence one's life or perspective of the world. How could they not? I'm asking, to what extent, do those qualities factor into your sense of identity?
    I don't see how these two concepts are exclusive. How do you not identify with the things that made you who you are? How do you not identify with the struggle of being a certain gender, either way it goes? It is impossible for me to say, "I don't identify as a woman" because being a woman is absolutely what has influenced much of my life. If someone asks me, "What makes you who you are?" I probably won't say, "Being a girl" because.. it's such an obvious answer that it doesn't really say much. People assume that's an influencing factor. What I would say is the specifics behind being a girl--whether I was a tomboy, or a girly girl, or whether my father approved of my antics and behaviors, whether my mother set a good example, etc.

    But for me, personally, I put very little importance on those traits. If someone asked me to describe myself, or as a former classmate would say, "What are you about?" I don't think I would even reference my race, gender or citizenship because it doesn't really tell them anything about who I am as a person.
    That's because those things are too obvious. When you're in a foreign country you can quickly sum up an entire concept by saying, "I'm a Texan." People have so many stereotypes about Texas that it's easier to weed out which you are/are not after you rule out the hundreds of other stereotypes out there. You can tell a lot about a person based on their gender, race, and nationality. Not everything, surely.. but even if you rebel against what your country stands for, who you're stereotypically suppose to be attracted to, or don't participate in your race's traditions, you can tell a LOT about a person based on those shallow vague bits of information. You can narrow a lot down.

    Whereas, the way some people constantly talk about their gender, race or brag about how great their country is, you'd think they have no separate identity apart from those qualities, as if they were forged out of some kind of pre-determined mold. Also, heavily identifying with these impersonal factors leads to a lot of elitism, discrimination and bigotry in the world.
    Sure. So does judging people that are proud of where they came from. How is it less of an identity, or a less valid identity, to say you're a Texan, proud of it, and do all the stereotypical Texan things you were raised around. How is it not an elitist attitude to say, "I think that people proud of their ethnicity and nationality have weaker, cookie cutter personalities in comparison to my unique identity markers." What do you have going for you that makes your shit better than the very fundamentals that mold everyone that passes through them forever?

    It gives one a strong sense of tradition, acceptance, basis, and home. Those are pretty important things and aspects in a person growing up--and they stick with you. It may seem cookie cutter to you, but for many it's what separates them from the crowd. Anywhere I go in the world, people have an idea of what my unique home looks like because of where I came from. No matter where I go, or how odd the traditions are, even if I indulge in them.. I know people at home still understand where I'm coming from.

    It isn't a weak, soul-crushing thing to love your home country. Or to embrace racial traditions. Or to enjoy being the gender you are. Infact, I would argue that these identities are stronger if they'd be crushed when they were stripped away. If you can say, "Oh, I'm no longer a guy. Oh well. Oh, I'm no longer considered a Mexican because there is no country of Mexico now. Fancy that..." chances are it wasn't a strong part of who you were at all.
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  9. #19
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    You misunderstood me. I wasn't claiming that these qualities don't influence one's life or perspective of the world. How could they not? I'm asking, to what extent, do those qualities factor into your sense of identity?
    I don't see how these two concepts are exclusive. How do you not identify with the things that made you who you are? How do you not identify with the struggle of being a certain gender, either way it goes? It is impossible for me to say, "I don't identify as a woman" because being a woman is absolutely what has influenced much of my life. If someone asks me, "What makes you who you are?" I probably won't say, "Being a girl" because.. it's such an obvious answer that it doesn't really say much. People assume that's an influencing factor. What I would say is the specifics behind being a girl--whether I was a tomboy, or a girly girl, or whether my father approved of my antics and behaviors, whether my mother set a good example, etc.

    But for me, personally, I put very little importance on those traits. If someone asked me to describe myself, or as a former classmate would say, "What are you about?" I don't think I would even reference my race, gender or citizenship because it doesn't really tell them anything about who I am as a person.
    That's because those things are too obvious. When you're in a foreign country you can quickly sum up an entire concept by saying, "I'm a Texan." People have so many stereotypes about Texas that it's easier to weed out which you are/are not after you rule out the hundreds of other stereotypes out there. You can tell a lot about a person based on their gender, race, and nationality. Not everything, surely.. but even if you rebel against what your country stands for, who you're stereotypically suppose to be attracted to, or don't participate in your race's traditions, you can tell a LOT about a person based on those shallow vague bits of information. You can narrow a lot down.

    Whereas, the way some people constantly talk about their gender, race or brag about how great their country is, you'd think they have no separate identity apart from those qualities, as if they were forged out of some kind of pre-determined mold. Also, heavily identifying with these impersonal factors leads to a lot of elitism, discrimination and bigotry in the world.
    Sure. So does judging people that are proud of where they came from. How is it less of an identity, or a less valid identity, to say you're a Texan, proud of it, and do all the stereotypical Texan things you were raised around. How is it not an elitist attitude to say, "I think that people proud of their ethnicity and nationality have weaker, cookie cutter personalities in comparison to my unique identity markers." What do you have going for you that makes your shit better than the very fundamentals that mold everyone that passes through them forever?

    It gives one a strong sense of tradition, acceptance, basis, and home. Those are pretty important things and aspects in a person growing up--and they stick with you. It may seem cookie cutter to you, but for many it's what separates them from the crowd. Anywhere I go in the world, people have an idea of what my unique home looks like because of where I came from. No matter where I go, or how odd the traditions are, even if I indulge in them.. I know people at home still understand where I'm coming from.

    It isn't a weak, soul-crushing thing to love your home country. Or to embrace racial traditions. Or to enjoy being the gender you are. Infact, I would argue that these identities are stronger if they'd be crushed when they were stripped away. If you can say, "Oh, I'm no longer a guy. Oh well. Oh, I'm no longer considered a Mexican because there is no country of Mexico now. Fancy that..." chances are it wasn't a strong part of who you were at all. But I also think people who THINK they wouldn't be crushed by it are kidding themselves. People don't think they care that much about being something else.. but they don't realize that who they are is based largely on that sort of stuff. I would literally not even be the same person, with any of the same experiences or thought processes, if I changed something as drastic as my gender. If I was no longer a woman, and that ceased to be, it would be completely and utterly destroying to my personality. I'd suddenly be gay--or suddenly attracted to girls. My boyfriend wouldn't ever have been with me. I would have never met my best friend, which was a friendship initially born of attraction. None of it would be.

    And I know that because the people who watch the countries they love fall apart have to live with that for the rest of their lives. People are still scared to say what gender they know in their heart they are because of how STRONG that sort of identity is for everyone. The fact that they create so many stereotypes, discriminatory elements, and elite attitudes is part of why they're strong influences in the first place.

    I don't know you. Maybe you're one of the rare people who would literally just yawn and change your underwear at the store that day if you woke up magically a different gender. Or if you were suddenly black when you'd been white your whole life. Maybe not a single damn thing would have ever changed on you. But I'll eat my hat when I see that happen.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    That's because those things are too obvious. When you're in a foreign country you can quickly sum up an entire concept by saying, "I'm a Texan." People have so many stereotypes about Texas that it's easier to weed out which you are/are not after you rule out the hundreds of other stereotypes out there. You can tell a lot about a person based on their gender, race, and nationality. Not everything, surely.. but even if you rebel against what your country stands for, who you're stereotypically suppose to be attracted to, or don't participate in your race's traditions, you can tell a LOT about a person based on those shallow vague bits of information. You can narrow a lot down.
    I'm not convinced that you can tell so much about a person as you claim. Maybe if they have a "I'm proud to be a Texan" shirt on, you could jump to some conclusions that they openly embrace the stereotypes, but I wouldn't assume that just because someone is from Texas that they affiliate with a particular political party, enjoy cow tipping, etc... In fact, I think it's dangerous when people get carried away with stereotyping. How can you embrace this and oppose, let's say, racial profiling? It makes me think of Michael Scott. lol



    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Sure. So does judging people that are proud of where they came from. How is it less of an identity, or a less valid identity, to say you're a Texan, proud of it, and do all the stereotypical Texan things you were raised around. How is it not an elitist attitude to say, "I think that people proud of their ethnicity and nationality have weaker, cookie cutter personalities in comparison to my unique identity markers." What do you have going for you that makes your shit better than the very fundamentals that mold everyone that passes through them forever?

    It gives one a strong sense of tradition, acceptance, basis, and home. Those are pretty important things and aspects in a person growing up--and they stick with you. It may seem cookie cutter to you, but for many it's what separates them from the crowd. Anywhere I go in the world, people have an idea of what my unique home looks like because of where I came from. No matter where I go, or how odd the traditions are, even if I indulge in them.. I know people at home still understand where I'm coming from.

    It isn't a weak, soul-crushing thing to love your home country. Or to embrace racial traditions. Or to enjoy being the gender you are. Infact, I would argue that these identities are stronger if they'd be crushed when they were stripped away. If you can say, "Oh, I'm no longer a guy. Oh well. Oh, I'm no longer considered a Mexican because there is no country of Mexico now. Fancy that..." chances are it wasn't a strong part of who you were at all. But I also think people who THINK they wouldn't be crushed by it are kidding themselves. People don't think they care that much about being something else.. but they don't realize that who they are is based largely on that sort of stuff. I would literally not even be the same person, with any of the same experiences or thought processes, if I changed something as drastic as my gender. If I was no longer a woman, and that ceased to be, it would be completely and utterly destroying to my personality. I'd suddenly be gay--or suddenly attracted to girls. My boyfriend wouldn't ever have been with me. I would have never met my best friend, which was a friendship initially born of attraction. None of it would be.

    And I know that because the people who watch the countries they love fall apart have to live with that for the rest of their lives. People are still scared to say what gender they know in their heart they are because of how STRONG that sort of identity is for everyone. The fact that they create so many stereotypes, discriminatory elements, and elite attitudes is part of why they're strong influences in the first place.

    I don't know you. Maybe you're one of the rare people who would literally just yawn and change your underwear at the store that day if you woke up magically a different gender. Or if you were suddenly black when you'd been white your whole life. Maybe not a single damn thing would have ever changed on you. But I'll eat my hat when I see that happen.
    If you put a lot of value on tradition and acceptance and a sense of belonging then I can see why these labels and categories matter so much to you. Like most cliques and social order, I just see it as a way for people to establish dominance over others and create some sort of hierarchy. I'm grateful that I live in the US. I think it's probably one of the best countries in the world to live in for various reasons, but I view my citizenship here as merely circumstantial. It doesn't add value to me, as a person, in any way. I don't think Americans are intrinsically better than people from other countries. As far as being a male, surely testosterone has played a factor in my brain chemistry, but I think many of the traits that are often associated with masculinity are socially conditioned and reinforced. Basically, I don't like rules, restrictions, regulations and definitions where they need not apply. I like my freedom. It don't get more Amurican than that.

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