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  1. #11
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I did do that. Just because you dismiss it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I'm still not angry.
    You substantiated your claims with the opinion of a biased blogger. That's not evidence.

  2. #12
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    You substantiated your claims with the opinion of a biased blogger. That's not evidence.
    Sigh.
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  3. #13
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    What thoughts, feeling, images does the Obama va. McCain decision conjure up in your mind?
    A twisted pain in my groin drives me to my knees and then boils into my throat before a fleshy, Vesuvian expulsion of blood and mucous erupts from all of my orifices, staining both my clothes and the coarse earth as my mind slips between the shadows of Hades.

    And there I see Obama staring wantonly at McCain as he feeds him strawberries.

    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    Based on research. Read: "How Customers Think"
    Customers think?

    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    I don't agree. Have you ever tried to quit smoking? Is smoking a rational habit? People try desperately for many year to try to quit and never succeed. I quit in Feb '01. I realized that I was trapped in a cycle of always having the comfort of another cigarette to fall back on if I fail to quit on any given attempt. Furthermore, all of my smoking paraphernalia had become part of my identity as a smoker. I had to let go of all of that stuff. I had to throw it all out; favorite lighters, ash trays, everything; I had to commit to never smoking another cigarette again; I also raised the pain of smoking above the pain of going without a cigarette by punishing myself for each puff. I made a commitment to always buy packs of 20 along with a relatively expensive lighter--but I could only take one puff and had to throw out the whole pack and the lighter. Finally since my smoking habit was associated with the places in my life I had to move house to leave the habit in the old house. I also happen to work from home at the time.

    Yes and no. The unconscious mind is not equipped to evaluate truth claims. But the "rational" mind is not a computer. Take smoking. There are powerful forces moving you to smoke another cigarette. These are unconscious forces; your conscious mind at this point is cooking up rationalization to support your decision to go for another cigarette--I'm under a lot of stress now; If I stop smoking now I will put on a pile of weight; I will have one final cigarette and then quit tomorrow. As soon as you had that cigarette you feel like cr@p. You are asking yourself why you did it, and why you keep doing that.
    I think the smoking example reinforces my point. Smoking has many benefits, (some of which you listed), and it is rational pursue these benefits. But not one of the benefits associated with smoking is the good--the end in itself--that which is sought for its own sake and not for the sake of something else. In the case of smoking, a rational agent will realize that smoking is a hindrance to pursuing higher order goods, and he will exercise discipline in order to bring his desires in line with what his mind believes to be more valuable--just as you did: rational reflection and critical examination of your actions caused you to ask questions, and, once prompted by these questions, you concluded that not smoking was more valuable than smoking--despite the benefits of smoking, despite the urges that bubble up from your unconscious mind--and you quit. From what you wrote, it seems this process was not unconscious at all. You did it very deliberately.

    Not that Zaltman has said nothing valuable. Many people don't bother to think deeply about what is good for them, and they let themselves be tossed about by their unconscious, listening only to their desires and passions without ever subjecting them to critical examination--and because of this they can be easily manipulated. They ignore that 5% of their mind, what it needs, like a ship with sails and no rudder, and they go wherever the wind takes them.

  4. #14

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    When I close my eyes, I see red and blue balls for lightning, bothe spinning and revolving around their common center of mass. The red lightning is more jagged and angular, while the blue lightning is linear and like long poles.

    I have no idea what this means other than for the fact that I was reading something political before I started imagining.

    Also, as a side note, Martin Seligman asserts that the candidates that win elections are the more optimistic ones. He claims a higher success rate in the elections of 1988, on this principle, than political experts had.

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  5. #15
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I think the best theory I've heard (this might be from Keirsey, I don't remember) is that an SP candidate is the one most likely to be elected. To me this makes sense if you assume that most N's lean liberal and most SJ's lean conservative. That leaves a good chunk of SP's who are independents, and they basically decide who the president will be. All else being equal an SP will choose another SP.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I think the smoking example reinforces my point. Smoking has many benefits, (some of which you listed), and it is rational pursue these benefits. But not one of the benefits associated with smoking is the good--the end in itself--that which is sought for its own sake and not for the sake of something else. In the case of smoking, a rational agent will realize that smoking is a hindrance to pursuing higher order goods, and he will exercise discipline in order to bring his desires in line with what his mind believes to be more valuable--just as you did: rational reflection and critical examination of your actions caused you to ask questions, and, once prompted by these questions, you concluded that not smoking was more valuable than smoking--despite the benefits of smoking, despite the urges that bubble up from your unconscious mind--and you quit. From what you wrote, it seems this process was not unconscious at all. You did it very deliberately.
    I did it deliberately and with rational reasoning, but the rational reasoning was directed at changing the pain of smoking in relation to another pain--the pain of spending money. I raised the pain of spending money above the pain of not smoking. I also pictured in my mind a particularly nasty ad whereby a surgeon squeezed white puss out of the arteries of a smoker. And I changed the emotional attachment I had formed with places that I had associated the habit of smoking by moving house. In effect I was purposefully working on changing the emotional attachment I had formed with the smoking habit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Not that Zaltman has said nothing valuable. Many people don't bother to think deeply about what is good for them, and they let themselves be tossed about by their unconscious, listening only to their desires and passions without ever subjecting them to critical examination--and because of this they can be easily manipulated. They ignore that 5% of their mind, what it needs, like a ship with sails and no rudder, and they go wherever the wind takes them.
    True to some extent. But can you honestly say you are in complete control of all of your emotions?


    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    When I close my eyes, I see red and blue balls for lightning, bothe spinning and revolving around their common center of mass. The red lightning is more jagged and angular, while the blue lightning is linear and like long poles.

    I have no idea what this means other than for the fact that I was reading something political before I started imagining.

    Also, as a side note, Martin Seligman asserts that the candidates that win elections are the more optimistic ones. He claims a higher success rate in the elections of 1988, on this principle, than political experts had.
    Woo hoo! Something to work with. I know the spinning and revolving is a common theme identified by Zaltman--containment I believe. Containment being one of his seven deep metaphors. I will think some more and post later. Thanks!

    EDIT: Balance is another deep metaphor.

  7. #17
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I think the best theory I've heard (this might be from Keirsey, I don't remember) is that an SP candidate is the one most likely to be elected. To me this makes sense if you assume that most N's lean liberal and most SJ's lean conservative. That leaves a good chunk of SP's who are independents, and they basically decide who the president will be. All else being equal an SP will choose another SP.
    That makes a lot of sense to me, and yeah, according to Keirsey, the only time an SP has ever lost a general election is when he was opposed by another SP. Opposed by any other temperament, the SP has always won the general election. 3 out of the last 4 presidents have been SPs, the only exception was SJ Bush, Sr. And he was the only one of the four to not be re-elected. Even though I didn't support Clinton, I can understand why a lot of my fellow SPs would support him over SJ "fogies" like Bush 1 and Dole. Personally, when someone rides a wave of "cult of personality" the way Clinton did, and Obama is doing, that's one of the surest ways to get me to NOT support someone, as I HATE following the crowd, and am likely to rebel against those kinds of hot-air-filled bandwagons. The more Bush's popularity slipped, the more I liked him! I have an instinctual compulsion to support the underdog and the attacked, and to rebel against mob mentality of any kind.

    I think the history will hold true again and that more people who make up their mind at the last minute (a lot of them likely to be SPs ) will vote for McCain.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think the history will hold true again and that more people who make up their mind at the last minute (a lot of them likely to be SPs ) will vote for McCain.
    That's an interesting and insightful analysis. Is there anthing at all that might tempt you you consider Obama?

  9. #19
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I think the history will hold true again and that more people who make up their mind at the last minute (a lot of them likely to be SPs ) will vote for McCain.
    I think this is probably true. If the polls are close the week before the election, then it will probably go to McCain. Though if Obama has built himself a decent lead up to that point, then I think he'll probably win. McCain has several strikes against him that most other SP candidates didn't have, so I think it could go either way at this point.
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