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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    How do you think Ti/Fi would have been different from Te/Fe? I'm not sure I understand you there.
    it doesn't, that's sort of irrelevant to my point, so i'll rephrase to avoid the confusion: people who have Ti&Fe and people who have Fi&Te are usually 50% of MBTI survey's, no one group is bigger then the other, which means it is pretty likely that at least 50% of the people who participated in the psychological experiments were Ti users.
    now, if the psychological experiments had a 50% of the test subjects able to process new facts with ease while only 50% had a hard time, you could argue that one of the groups might have being TiFe users, or that they were less likely to resist facts. but this isn't the case - instead it seems like the vast majority of test subjects responded the same, which means it isn't likely to be linked to typology, at least not for aspects that stand around the 50/50 population divide.

    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    Where do we bring "criticism" into the picture? I thought this was just about presenting facts (and interpreting them).
    the theory presented (though arguably not well supported) in the article was that people avoid recognizing facts conflicting their beliefs in areas they relate to their identities, while more accepting when they don't feel connected to it. for example, if you were an environmentalist and i gave you data that conflicted with human-induced global warming, i would essentially be saying you are wrong in your stance as an environmentalist, and thus from your subconscious's point of view, critiquing your beliefs - critiquing you for being an environmentalist - and you'd be less likely to accept the data. while not having a personal stance would make you more likely to accept the stance.

    the proposed solution (self affirmation drills) does support this might be the case, but it doesn't seem like they made a comparable study between the responses to new information in regards to neutral issues vs. issues with personal stances.

    (they should have... are you bored enough to write an angry letter to their university's dean that they should get the research budget for a comparitive study? i'm not, but if you happen to have the time...)

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    Nice article. So am I alone in knowing very well that I don't know a lot about certain topics? I'm usually painfully aware of where my current understanding ends. The article gave examples about flushing toilets, car speedometers and sewing machines... yeah I have no idea how any of those really work and I would have willingly admitted that in the study. Honestly I've never really checked out these sorts of things, though I sometimes get curious for a second or two about how certain everyday things work "under the hood". But then I just forget to go look it up or something... Though if the study had said "computers", I would have responded differently
    If by study alone, you are probably among the few participants that did so. There's no mention whether anyone did or didn't do so, only what the experiments were and how those that went through them accordingly came out on the other end.
    Personally, I'd try to explain. I know that a car for example, is beyond me but a flushing toilet, I'd like to try. I might've stated that I didn't know but I damn well would have tried. I looked up the speedometer, and I wasn't far off. When it did come to the technical details, I lacked but the general idea of it, I had down. Where to put things that read areas and how to display them at my drivers seat, what they read but not how they read. I still don't understand that, even though I am staring at the description. I guess there's another idea I need to interlock with this to understand that.

    I was looking up the toilet thing when I was a child, I don't remember so I'd probably loose. I generally took things apart and put them together again as a kid. Did it a lot.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    it doesn't, that's sort of irrelevant to my point, so i'll rephrase to avoid the confusion: people who have Ti&Fe and people who have Fi&Te are usually 50% of MBTI survey's, no one group is bigger then the other, which means it is pretty likely that at least 50% of the people who participated in the psychological experiments were Ti users.
    now, if the psychological experiments had a 50% of the test subjects able to process new facts with ease while only 50% had a hard time, you could argue that one of the groups might have being TiFe users, or that they were less likely to resist facts. but this isn't the case - instead it seems like the vast majority of test subjects responded the same, which means it isn't likely to be linked to typology, at least not for aspects that stand around the 50/50 population divide.
    I got your point, just not why you had to mention specifically Ti/Fi. It could have been any other function pair (as long as they're close enough to 50/50).

    Interesting point that this doesn't seem to be type related much. Not that it's surprising

    the theory presented (though arguably not well supported) in the article was that people avoid recognizing facts conflicting their beliefs in areas they relate to their identities, while more accepting when they don't feel connected to it. for example, if you were an environmentalist and i gave you data that conflicted with human-induced global warming, i would essentially be saying you are wrong in your stance as an environmentalist, and thus from your subconscious's point of view, critiquing your beliefs - critiquing you for being an environmentalist - and you'd be less likely to accept the data. while not having a personal stance would make you more likely to accept the stance.

    the proposed solution (self affirmation drills) does support this might be the case, but it doesn't seem like they made a comparable study between the responses to new information in regards to neutral issues vs. issues with personal stances.
    See, the simple act of presenting facts isn't taken as criticism when you don't link an idea to your identity. I already got the point of the article before but it's true that I didn't realize that people actually take benign fact-presenting put in a neutral style as personal criticism when they are personally invested in whatever idea. So even when your intention is NOT to give that kind of criticism, the personally/emotionally invested person will still take it as such. Right? I don't actually know for sure, because to me, an informative leaflet mailed to me by whatever organization is definitely not taken that way. I just evaluate the facts without bringing anything personal into it.

    Otoh, honestly, quite a few people including myself, unrelated to their degree of investment in an opinion, don't like the kind of criticism when the presentation is harsh and the intention is clearly negative. The lines can blur though, it's a subjective interpretation by some people... e.g. if you have good intentions with the correction but you don't present the argument in a neutral or supportive enough tone. Though, in my case, even when the tone etc is bad, I do evaluate the content itself, not just the style of the presentation. Doesn't mean I will change my opinion; I may or may not change it, that depends on the result of the evaluation. It's probably hard to be always entirely detached though, so the style of the presentation might affect me to some degree. The only thing I'm sure about is that I do evaluate content. Anyway... this latter part of my post is not what the study was about originally. Just could be linked through certain mechanisms.

    You are right, it's not clear how/why the self-affirmation drills work exactly. It does make some sense though that they *do* have an effect.

    (they should have... are you bored enough to write an angry letter to their university's dean that they should get the research budget for a comparitive study? i'm not, but if you happen to have the time...)
    I'm not interested that much. If you are, then write the letter, I'd imagine it only takes about 5 minutes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
    If by study alone, you are probably among the few participants that did so. There's no mention whether anyone did or didn't do so, only what the experiments were and how those that went through them accordingly came out on the other end.
    Yeah I see. I was just surprised at the results of the study compared to how I myself work.

    Personally, I'd try to explain. I know that a car for example, is beyond me but a flushing toilet, I'd like to try. I might've stated that I didn't know but I damn well would have tried. I looked up the speedometer, and I wasn't far off. When it did come to the technical details, I lacked but the general idea of it, I had down. Where to put things that read areas and how to display them at my drivers seat, what they read but not how they read. I still don't understand that, even though I am staring at the description. I guess there's another idea I need to interlock with this to understand that.

    I was looking up the toilet thing when I was a child, I don't remember so I'd probably loose. I generally took things apart and put them together again as a kid. Did it a lot.
    Haha good idea to say you don't know but try anyway and maybe score better than that

    Which part exactly is the problem with the description of speedometer? (More specifically than "how they read")


    Does this make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me anymore.

    Glad you liked it.
    Er what wouldn't make sense ?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    Haha good idea to say you don't know but try anyway and maybe score better than that

    Which part exactly is the problem with the description of speedometer? (More specifically than "how they read")

    It was something about coils around a metallic thingy which caused some sort of thingy that was magnetic and that read the velocity of the thingy. Now that I thingk about it, I might just have figured it out.
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  5. #25
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    Are vaccines bad or something?

    Or was that merely a conduit for the study of people ignoring studies?

    While science certainly can, after long periods of careful observation and rigorous studying, testing, and experimenting, prove certain things, this can take decades. And "studies" are just steps towards the Truth.

    There are lots of "studies" out there with diametrically opposed results. Just take a look at how many there are on diets over the past 30 years. Fat is good, fat is bad, some fat is good, some fat is bad, all fat is bad, cholesterol is bad, what kind of cholesterol? oh that's good, milk is bad, milk is good, and on and on and on.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    I got your point, just not why you had to mention specifically Ti/Fi. It could have been any other function pair (as long as they're close enough to 50/50).
    because i thought your the one who asked "[COLOR=#333333]Would be curious if there's any Fi/Ti disparity at play"... now that i look, it was actually @burymecloser ...

    but arhm, this suggests i was wrong, and the article says i am not supposed to be able to adapt to information that shows that i am wrong, so... erg... *refuses to believe!*

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
    It was something about coils around a metallic thingy which caused some sort of thingy that was magnetic and that read the velocity of the thingy. Now that I thingk about it, I might just have figured it out.
    Glad you figured it out


    Quote Originally Posted by Society View Post
    because i thought your the one who asked "[COLOR=#333333]Would be curious if there's any Fi/Ti disparity at play"... now that i look, it was actually @burymecloser ...

    but arhm, this suggests i was wrong, and the article says i am not supposed to be able to adapt to information that shows that i am wrong, so... erg... *refuses to believe!*
    Lol

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by infinite View Post
    Glad you figured it out




    Lol
    Want another good site?

    http://changingminds.org/index.htm
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serendipity View Post
    urm what's that?

    ...hmm ok looks interesting, thanks

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