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  1. #21
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    @calb, it's great that socialising has worked for you. My situation is that I work a social job which means I burn all my social energy with people I wouldn't choose to be around. The limited time I have at home is my sanity time where I can decompress from the emotionally draining job I do. It's not as if I materially help others either. I simply manage people's unrealistic sense if entitlement and other less favourable aspects of personalities. So forgive me if I want some me time and not spend the precious moments I have swimming in the relentless tide of ego.
    Can you change your job?

  2. #22
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Can you change your job?
    Been actively applying for other jobs for the past year. No bites yet but hope as thy say springs eternal.

  3. #23
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by calb View Post
    I can clearly see that your ego is on the line here.
    Seriously? What a dick thing to say.

  4. #24
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Seriously? What a dick thing to say.
    Why is that a dick thing to say?

  5. #25
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Not caring is a moral issue. Not caring is a matter of the heart.

    So to move from not caring to caring requires a change of heart.

    We can't buy a change of heart at the supermarket, but we can find a change of heart by falling in love with someone with a beautiful heart.

    I fell in love with Simone Weil, but who knows who you might fall in love with?
    I really like this, Mole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Also, the total isolation concept is quite maddening. I always like to remember that what we see out in the environment is simply a reconstruction inside our head, that we don't actually look out into the world, we look within at what renders from input data, like having a picture from the outside delivered to a closed off room. Makes you realize the strangeness of it all.
    Indeed.

  6. #26
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    You said you play the harp?

    Would you say it is a passion of yours? I agree with @Nicodemus you have to create your own reason from some form of passion.

    I've had/have similar thoughts and continue to bounce in and out of them, so perhaps I am not the best person to give advice on the matter. But perhaps you could make that harp your passion, music communicates intuitively with the mind of others and doesn't demand conventional explanation; people can only rationalise as best they can, after the fact. Like everything really.

    You wouldn't have to do this for others either, it can be for yourself, not so much that misery loves company as expression of what you value. I think people tend to get caught up in meaning from a human perspective, which is of course impossible to escape for us and we are inherently biased.

    But I think we can grasp the tail end of meaning from which the apparent universe derives. It doesn't require a set standard of logic, the earth and by extension ourselves, are all here by a conglomeration of variables that just happened to come together for the right conditions of what we call 'life'.

    I do think there is meaning in life, I just don't think it is a human one, nor do I see it as one belonging to a beneficent deity or conscious force. It doesn't judge, or command, or ask, or give and we cannot bully it, or be bullied by it...it just is; much like ourselves. I know this sounds suspiciously like giving up on trying to search for truth in the matter, but it's more of an acceptance that we can change our format and approach to this line of questioning, which doesn't mean that we stop seeking, only that we change the nature of how we seek. Of course this does bring into question the nature of morality which is to me, a more difficult topic.

    But in either case emotions are part of the issue. Even when we consider ourselves a font of reason who do not react or feel emotions strongly, they are still there as part of our evolution. Emotions always come before the rationalisation of them and they are definitely triggered by certain stimulus, which we then intellectualise into complex and interwoven explanations. In some ways this is actually an almost in-built belief system, we believe that what causes these emotional reactions are to blame and because of this, they are.

    More importantly though, life is just our experience, from birth to death. You can check out early if you want, or stick it out to the end, but it's still your decision.

    The meaning is in what you choose to make of it.

    Or...yknow, determinism. Whatevs!
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #27
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    This is strange. I'm reading a book right now about an INTJ psychoanalyst experiencing the exact same problem. It's titled 'The Listener' by Allen Wheelis. He says he doesn't know how to live. He plays the part of living. He goes on walks with his ENFP wife, plays with the dog, and listens to patients, but he finds such excursions and experiences "tedious". His wife asks him why he ignores her all the time and he responds by telling her a story (I won't spoil it in case you want to read the book.).

    I haven't finished the book so I don't know if he ever finds what he's looking for.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  8. #28
    WhoCares
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    @Tellenbach,

    I cant speak for other INTJs but for me, I am more idealist than realist, more dreamer than pragmatist. So the harshness of reality is something I've never made peace with. What most people pass off as human frailty is unconscionable darkness to me. I just cant say, well thats people, because it deeply affects me to know that people are unreliable, unpredictable and can go off the dial on a moments notice. So I've not met anyone I would call a good person actually, they are all as finicky and untrustworthy as each other. The shifting morality that exists within people is I think, the most dangerous aspect of humans. Because it means there truly is no line in the sand, anyone will do anything given the right set of circumstances. And a lot of everyday circumstances will see regular people doing very questionable things all the while justifying their actions.

    One of my coworkers friends was seriously injured in a car accident and lying on the road. Several people stopped but not one of them assisted. They all robbed this injured person,taking his wallet from his pocket, belongings from his vehicle and leaving him for dead on the road. He remembers people rifling through his clothing and stepping over him but it was some time before anyone arrived that called the emergency services. I'd like to think that a van of petty crims were first on the scene, but the reality is, these were regular people given a set of circumstances and choosing to do what they did consciously. Its what people do when no-ones looking that bothers me.

    So yeah, its a bleak outlook on life when you realise this is the basis of society. Ethics, morals, beauty of humanity...all just fairytales at the end of the day.

  9. #29
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares
    So the harshness of reality is something I've never made peace with.
    From another INTJ:

    "The crazy violence that is everywhere, promiscuous, flares up in an instant, with no more warning, no more meaning, no more reason than a dogfight. How little time for laughter, how brief our innocence of what lies in wait." Allen Wheelis

    This is what Wheelis concludes to be meaning in life:

    "We live by attachment, not by reason. That's why love is primary: there is no value without caring, and caring is loving. If looking about at the world, one finds no one and no thing to love, no bird, no tree, no flower worth caring about, the world is without value; and then, in fatal consequence, one's own life is without value."

    "But if, looking about at the world, one finds someone to love, or perhaps not a person but a dog, or maybe only a plant that wants water and needs sunshine, or maybe not even anything living but a thing - an old house that has sheltered us, that has creaked and moaned in the storms of winter - then one has something to live for, and in consequence, one's own life is worth preserving. That's the point: one's own life has value only because one cares for others. And one cares without a reason! Without reflection, without the weighing of profit and loss. The caring that justifies everything else is itself without justification. It is a leap."

    It took Wheelis a lifetime to come up with that. Hopefully, it won't take you as long.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #30
    WhoCares
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    I'm inspired to read that book @Tellenbach, and yes I have my reason for living...for now. I have two creatures who live with me and inspire me to acts of love beyond all reason. They are why I haven't given myself the green dream, I will stay as long as they live. Hopefully when they are gone there will be something else to keep me going.

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