User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 26

  1. #11
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    3,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    No. Being secular does not preclude one from being moral, nor do morals have to come from religious institutions.
    I never said it precluded it, nor did I did say that morals must come from religious institutions. Also, that psychology today blog post has lots of misinformation such as:

    Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations.
    The US, which is highly religious, gives $851/year per person compared to $120/year for Germans and $96/year for the French. Daily Breeze, Dec 15,1999.

    Also,

    "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."
    Are these murders committed by devout people or regular churchgoers or are they committed by non-churchgoers?

    "Harvard economist Richard B. Freeman finds that church attendance is a better predictor of who escapes poverty, drug addiction, and crime than are family income, family structure, and other variables. An exhaustive review article in Criminology in 1995 found that even under adverse social and economic conditions, churchgoing serves as "an insulator against crime and delinquency.""

    Punishment Up, Crime Down
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    2,340

    Default Forever_Jung and the Tell-Tale Grape

    One time when I was 4, my mom took me grocery shopping and I stole a grape. I was overcome with guilt afterwards, but by God, I reasoned, I deserved to have that grape, I was hungry and my mom was taking forever to finish shopping. I had managed to put the whole incident behind me until...

    One year later

    We returned to the same grocery store. Oh God, this is where IT happened. They all know. They're looking at me. I have to come clean, I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE! *Stands up in grocery cart and starts shouting* I STOLE A GRAPE! I KNOW IT WAS WRONG! I'm sorry, I was hungry *incoherent yammering through tears*.

    Needless to say, I learned my lesson.

  3. #13
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #14
    LadyLazarus
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hacbad macbar View Post
    bcc its fun
    Finally someone makes a REAL argument.

    /procrime2010

  5. #15
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 sp/so
    Socionics
    EIE Fe
    Posts
    7,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I never said it precluded it, nor did I did say that morals must come from religious institutions. Also, that psychology today blog post has lots of misinformation such as:

    Are these murders committed by devout people or regular churchgoers or are they committed by non-churchgoers?

    "Harvard economist Richard B. Freeman finds that church attendance is a better predictor of who escapes poverty, drug addiction, and crime than are family income, family structure, and other variables. An exhaustive review article in Criminology in 1995 found that even under adverse social and economic conditions, churchgoing serves as "an insulator against crime and delinquency.""

    Punishment Up, Crime Down
    Your post implied it, which is why I commented on it.

    I also do not find your cited sources credible, but that's another matter we will never, ever, agree on so I don't care to get into that. Even so, that's from 1997, what I cited is from 2011, so the information contained within are more recent.

    The sources the wiki sites seems sound. So really both statements are true. Religon seems to on an individual level lower the crime rate, where as secularism as a group tends to lower the crime rate. The relationship is likely much more complicated than the effect of religon itself, but we can observe the effects of it. Which, is why I find the claim that secularism as a group increases crime. It doesn't.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  6. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp
    Socionics
    INFj Ne
    Posts
    783

    Default

    Stealing from a giant corporation is nothing compared to stealing from a homeless person. Disgustingly rich people don't really need more money, if you're extremely poor, theft may be completely understandable and even justifiable.

  7. #17
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I think the biggest justification towards stealing is a thought process similar to this "this likely won't effect anyone in a way they will notice, what they don't know won't hurt them. Also, what if I don't get caught? I can simply get away with it".
    this. these days there are all sorts of easy opportunities to steal little things (e.g. mp3s) so there is a lot of temptation to do it especially when "everybody else is doing it".

    Even if someone is morally against stealing, it doesn't mean they are going to obey their own morals on the matter. It's quite common in fact for individuals go go contrary to their own moral code, and generate some cognitive dissonance so as not to worry/stress about it.
    and definitely this. people justify their actions so they can keep doing them and enjoy the benefits of the action. if one is not responsible then they can keep stealing and enjoying the "free" post-it notes, etc. and not feel any guilt. if people admit it is wrong then they will most likely feel some guilt and the need to stop stealing so they lie to themselves instead.

  8. #18
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEI
    Posts
    2,399

    Default

    I can sympathize with a thief that has morals. Robin Hood style stealing from the rich to give to the poor. And by that I mean, if someone is extremely poor and steals a loaf of bread from big corporation WalMart, I wouldn't raise a brow. Some hooligan stealing from a mom and pops store on the other hand just pisses me off. The one is likely not to notice such a small theft, and likely is crooked to their non salaried staff anyways. The other has their personal livelihood, sweat, tears, and blood at stake. And if you're going to swipe a radio and break and car window in the process, steal it from the beamer who likely has amazing insurance and not from the person who looks like they're struggling to afford gas and likely only has liability.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  9. #19
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    3,953

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    No. Being secular does not preclude one from being moral, nor do morals have to come from religious institutions.
    Have you considered that perhaps religious institutions are more efficient at instilling morals than secular institutions (such as school or secular family life)? Take for example the poor kid raised by a single mother in Detroit. Is this child more likely or less likely to have a good moral education without religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard
    Even so, that's from 1997, what I cited is from 2011, so the information contained within are more recent.
    The blog post you linked to:

    "Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread."
    It's a huge leap to make any conclusions as to why this is, don't you agree? For instance, is this guy including the islamic jihadist nations of the middle east and africa? That outlier by itself would skew the statistics.

    Of the top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries."
    Are there jihadists, drug dealers, or gang members living in these cities? I'm guessing probably not and that is why they're safe; it has nothing to do with religion.

    "And within America, the states with the highest murder rates tend to be the highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, but the states with the lowest murder rates tend to be the among the least religious in the country, such as Vermont and Oregon."
    Again, does this guy take into account poverty rates, illegitimacy rates, gun laws, etc? Might not these factors be important? For instance, we know that African American males commit half the gun homicides in the country. Are there more blacks in Louisiana and Alabama vs Vermont and Oregon?

    Reading through this blog post, I'm confronted with one misleading point after another. It's sloppy in its presentation and it's very clearly biased.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  10. #20
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 sp/so
    Socionics
    EIE Fe
    Posts
    7,970

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Have you considered that perhaps religious institutions are more efficient at instilling morals than secular institutions (such as school or secular family life)? Take for example the poor kid raised by a single mother in Detroit. Is this child more likely or less likely to have a good moral education without religion?
    I have, and I do not agree at all. You don't need an "institution" to instill morals. If you did, countries with very low religious numbers would not be as they are.

    It's a huge leap to make any conclusions as to why this is, don't you agree? For instance, is this guy including the islamic jihadist nations of the middle east and africa? That outlier by itself would skew the statistics.
    No, that's not a huge leap. It is what it says. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

    Are there jihadists, drug dealers, or gang members living in these cities? I'm guessing probably not and that is why they're safe; it has nothing to do with religion.
    I don't know. Religion itself doesn't cause a problem on an individual level in the vast majority, but we can observe the bulk effect of it. See my previous post.

    Again, does this guy take into account poverty rates, illegitimacy rates, gun laws, etc? Might not these factors be important? For instance, we know that African American males commit half the gun homicides in the country. Are there more blacks in Louisiana and Alabama vs Vermont and Oregon? Reading through this blog post, I'm confronted with one misleading point after another. It's sloppy in its presentation and it's very clearly biased.
    I don't find it to be misleading at all. Further, if this (or any) article was written from the opposite prospective, I could ask the exact same kinds of questions. There's a lot of metrics that could frame it, and they don't act independently. Nevertheless we can observe that the less religious a country is, the better the quality of life is. There will be outliers, but this is a satistic we're talking about so it's a pattern.

    I should have just kept my mouth shut like I normally do. We're so impossibly far apart politically and morally that I don't think any common ground exists. We're both set in our ways too, so neither is going to budge.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


Similar Threads

  1. [INTJ] Why do people seem to dislike INTJs?
    By RenaiReborn in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 201
    Last Post: 06-03-2009, 08:36 AM
  2. Why do people from different cultures clash?
    By miggies in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-26-2008, 07:37 PM
  3. Why do people learn to read?
    By Lateralus in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 09-26-2008, 04:42 AM
  4. [INTJ] Why do people Pretend to be INTJ's?
    By Dominicus Griswold in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 08-26-2008, 10:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO