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View Poll Results: Which function correlates best with having critical thinking skills?

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  • Te

    9 25.00%
  • Fe

    5 13.89%
  • Ti

    29 80.56%
  • Se

    3 8.33%
  • Si

    6 16.67%
  • Ni

    13 36.11%
  • Ne

    4 11.11%
  • Fi

    9 25.00%
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  1. #81
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Even though I can work my way through a science problem, I cannot work my way through fixing a car. I lack the type of thinking skill required for it. Sure, I can learn.. but I'd be largely depending on someone else's thinking abilities. I don't have those assets myself.
    I keep mentioning this on the site...and anyone that reads it is probably like "sure Starry...we believe you" because all of my documents/links are on a computer I'm having issues with and I'm too uninterested in searching them out to use as citations but...

    Once again though, they have been doing a bunch of research on ADD, ADHD...and in many cases actually linking it extroverted intuition... <-for many reasons including a new understanding of intelligence...and a new understanding that...basically the Ne/ADHD mind might be able to figure a way out of the mess the world's in.

    The reason this quote is interesting to me is well... scientists have noted Ne could figure out how to fix a car...fix anything faster than anything. Or this what they're discovering...that the mind will shut down to it and say "I can't"... but if put to the test they really can do it easily. They're trying to understand this mechanism of patience. I totally didn't explain that well...and you don't need to try and respond...

    I was just trying to say that scientists are trying to figure out ways to measure intelligence in people that don't provide many of the measures they are used to...and whether I'm right or wrong I would say you have the mind to fix anything just not the patience. But again idk.

  2. #82
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I keep mentioning this on the site...and anyone that reads it is probably like "sure Starry...we believe you" because all of my documents/links are on a computer I'm having issues with and I'm too uninterested in searching them out to use as citations but...

    Once again though, they have been doing a bunch of research on ADD, ADHD...and in many cases actually linking it extroverted intuition... <-for many reasons including a new understanding of intelligence...and a new understanding that...basically the Ne/ADHD mind might be able to figure a way out of the mess the world's in.

    The reason this quote is interesting to me is well... scientists have noted Ne could figure out how to fix a car...fix anything faster than anything. Or this what they're discovering...that the mind will shut down to it and say "I can't"... but if put to the test they really can do it easily. They're trying to understand this mechanism of patience. I totally didn't explain that well...and you don't need to try and respond...

    I was just trying to say that scientists are trying to figure out ways to measure intelligence in people that don't provide many of the measures they are used to...and whether I'm right or wrong I would say you have the mind to fix anything just not the patience. But again idk.
    I like that concept a lot. I'd like to think I have the capability to fix everything.. maybe it truly is that I pick and choose skills vs not actually taking the time to find out what I am truly incapable of.. But patience is a big part of the equation either way.
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  3. #83
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I like that concept a lot. I'd like to think I have the capability to fix everything.. maybe it truly is that I pick and choose skills vs not actually taking the time to find out what I am truly incapable of.. But patience is a big part of the equation either way.
    The fact you were actually able to read and understand my post...is further scientific evidence that Ne can figure out anything haha (and I'm not really kidding)

  4. #84
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think Ni, Ne, Fi, and Ti all can exemplify strong critical thinking skills.

    That being said, I find Ni doms to be the best critical thinkers, in general.

    (Ni is the dominant function most correlated with giftedness, after all).

    INTPs can also be excellent critical thinkers, as can INFPs.

    Same goes for ENTPs and ENFPs -- both types usually are.

    Even some ISFPs can show solid critical thinking skills (FiNi?).

    I don't find ISTPs to be very good critical thinkers, otoh.

    Some can be better than others, tho (and some halfway decent).

    I find Si and Se to both be rather against critical thinking.

    (They look at everything too statically, aren't open to enough possibilities.)

    And, interestingly, I don't really find Te nor Fe to be particularly good at critical thinking.

    They serve some other function -- in the NJs, it's the Ni that does the critical thinking.

    The SJs, ha, well... with well-developed Ne they can develop critical thinking.
    Well I'm fucked then. Shame because l respect what critical thinking can offer, assuming I've understood the concept.

    Se appears to have been sold down the river, alongside Si. Se in particular has its own place in critical awareness in the immediate surroundings, in a crisis situation Se can actually harbour a form of immediate response that makes use of some critical thinking attributes.

    I did a little research into the subject and definitions were nothing if not varied. However I will recount an incident from a few years ago when I took part in a canoe trip with my parents climbing & caving club.

    At one point in the trip one of the canoes capsized sending three members into the quickly - rushing water. In that moment I, (who had also capsized with my two members but who had made it onto a nearby shoreline), quickly thought about the the individuals in that boat.

    All three were senior in age, around 70+, but the male was an experienced swimmer whereas the two females were not. It was then necessary to eliminate which of the two women was in the most danger. The lady to the front of the boat turned out to be the answer, she had been thrown in such a way that she was in danger of being swept down by the undercurrent, whereas the other lady had managed to grab hold of a branch from a nearby tree.

    Now many might wonder at what point critical thinking is being demonstrated here? I would answer that with my own question of: where isn't it being demonstrated?

    In those brief moments I had to evaluate myself and a group of other people in relation to the context at hand in a fairly objective manner, in order to affect an appropriate course of action. Yes it was not an in depth deconstruction of my own or others thinking, not did it expose or question a greater pattern of systems, but what it did do was allow me to put aside irrational fears of personal safety in order to critically analyse what course of action would benefit a multitude of organic creatures who each have something to offer to the other.

    Now I have to say I am not trying to diminish the value of critical thinking in an intellectual or scholar context, of which I have a great deal of respect, but I am trying to save people the embarrassing irony of defining critical thinking only by a set definition, when it can actually be applied to a large number of contexts.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #85
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Ok, but the rational functions, T and F, are the ones that we make reasoning with... Ne is scanning the external environment for possibilities (alternate realities), Se is scanning the environment for exact real time data... they do not pass judgment, Fi or Ti does in that case for instance...

    Internal judging (rational) functions are how you interpret (reason with) what you external (judging or perceiving) functions internalize from the outside... the latter two also serves as outlets as to how you express yourself... Ne for instance may allow one to adopt alternate personas to suit the environment or opportunize on the potential gains in the environment... Se OTOH may allow one to manipulate the environment physically so as to reach personal goals... They do not act on the internal reasoning functions (Fi or Ti)...
    This is why I specified the Ni-Te combination as driving critical thinking, at least for NTJs. Critical thinking requires a sound judgment process applied to reliable and pertinent information. No function can provide all of this on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Edit: Critical thinking is proactive whereas trial and error is reactive...
    Not so fast. Trial and observation is science, otherwise known in the words of Richard Feynman, as "a way of not fooling ourselves". The "proactive" (not really a word) part comes in good experimental design.

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I thought you developed critical thinking skills and weren't just born with them. It's not like an NT pops out of his mother and is a wiz at critical thinking. So I dunno
    You do develop them. Some people just have more innate ability to start with, similar to athletic ability, or musical ability, or many other abilities/talents.

    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Asking a fellow INTJ how they...feel?
    I don't *think* that's a good move.
    Just my way of needling two type groups in one brief post.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #86
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    If you ask me to think critically about an interpersonal issue, my Fe+Ni+Se+Ti is a superb combo. Fe looks for general people patterns, Ni looks for motivations/hidden meaning, overarching themes, Se looks for concrete evidence and validation. Ti looks for the logical consistency, most likely possibility. When it is used effectively and efficiently, I think that mixture can be quite logical (contrary to popular belief). This precise skill-set is what got me hired at my current job.

    It really all depends on the context for the critical thinking and what the actual purpose is.

  7. #87
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is why I specified the Ni-Te combination as driving critical thinking, at least for NTJs. Critical thinking requires a sound judgment process applied to reliable and pertinent information. No function can provide all of this on its own.
    Introverted thinking makes judgment based on internally defined preferences and set of values, extraverted does it based on externally defined preferences and set of values... As a Fe-aux I try to define, identify and judge based on a global\universal set of social values for humankind...

    So does this mean Te-aux tries to identify a global set of Te values (which are utility of all objects including humankind?) and make reasoning based on those...? Does it prefer to switch to local Te values if need be?

    I am wondering whether my reasoning process comes more from Fe or Ti...? Whether Fe just serves as input and output gateway rather than reasoning?

    Does reasoning process necessarily have to be internal?

    So does Ni also optimizes Fe and Te processes in terms of data gathering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not so fast. Trial and observation is science, otherwise known in the words of Richard Feynman, as "a way of not fooling ourselves". The "proactive" (not really a word) part comes in good experimental design.
    I thought it was a word...? Trial and observation is about analyzing internalized data (from the external environment)... Critical thinking requires monitoring and optimizing that internal analysis\reasoning process so that we'll not fool ourselves...

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You do develop them. Some people just have more innate ability to start with, similar to athletic ability, or musical ability, or many other abilities/talents.
    I believe Ne people can develop their shadow Ni function as they mature and gain more self-awareness whereas Ni people develop their shadow Ne and become less self-conscious as they mature... The former starts cutting himself\herself less slack whereas the latter more...

    I've highlighted points that I deem important for critical thinking as follows:

    In addition to possessing strong critical-thinking skills, one must be disposed to engage problems and decisions using those skills. Critical thinking employs not only logic but broad intellectual criteria such as clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, significance, and fairness.[12]
    "A persistent effort to examine any belief or supposed form of knowledge in the light of the evidence that supports or refutes it and the further conclusions to which it tends."[13]
    According to a definition analysis by Kompf & Bond (2001), critical thinking involves problem solving, decision making, metacognition, rationality, rational thinking, reasoning, knowledge, intelligence and also a moral component such as reflective thinking. Critical thinkers therefore need to have reached a level of maturity in their development, possess a certain attitude as well as a set of taught skills.
    Critical thinking is considered important in the academic fields because it enables one to analyze, evaluate, explain, and restructure their thinking, thereby decreasing the risk of adopting, acting on, or thinking with, a false belief. However, even with knowledge of the methods of logical inquiry and reasoning, mistakes can happen due to a thinker's inability to apply the methods or because of character traits such as egocentrism. Critical thinking includes identification of prejudice, bias, propaganda, self-deception, distortion, misinformation, etc. Given research in cognitive psychology, some educators believe that schools should focus on teaching their students critical thinking skills and cultivation of intellectual traits.
    They liken "critical thinking" to Socratic method... What's Socrates mbti type I wonder?

  8. #88
    WALMART
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    @yeghor -

    Se dom.

  9. #89
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think Ni, Ne, Fi, and Ti all can exemplify strong critical thinking skills.

    That being said, I find Ni doms to be the best critical thinkers, in general.

    (Ni is the dominant function most correlated with giftedness, after all).

    INTPs can also be excellent critical thinkers, as can INFPs.

    Same goes for ENTPs and ENFPs -- both types usually are.

    Even some ISFPs can show solid critical thinking skills (FiNi?).

    I don't find ISTPs to be very good critical thinkers, otoh.

    Some can be better than others, tho (and some halfway decent).

    I find Si and Se to both be rather against critical thinking.

    (They look at everything too statically, aren't open to enough possibilities.)

    And, interestingly, I don't really find Te nor Fe to be particularly good at critical thinking.

    They serve some other function -- in the NJs, it's the Ni that does the critical thinking.

    The SJs, ha, well... with well-developed Ne they can develop critical thinking.
    I guess since I have the "deep" thinking function and not the "deep" intuitive function, I feel compelled to go Ti nitpicky here and say that Ni doesn't do critical thinking; it does extremely uncritical intuiting. Ni doms have always struck me as people who are so open-minded that their minds seem liable to fall out at any moment.

    This can result in really effective critical thinking when paired properly with Judging functions, but on its own it doesn't do this. I think you kind of generally overestimate how much can attributed to Ni on its own because you really like being dominant in the dominant function most correlated with giftedness...which is fair enough, but you kind of unwittingly promote the popular misperception of Ni as some kind of superpower meta-function, etc. when you approach it this way.

    I also think your Ni and Te are generally so well integrated that you don't know how to separate them, which is another example of why Ni doesn't really do critical thinking any more than any other Perception function. It's not programmed for that because too much critical thinking makes Ni feel cramped and unable consider interpretive angles that aren't necessarily logically consistent with themselves. Seriously, pure Ni on its own interprets critical thinking as too limiting. Even adding the inherent judgment associated with critical thinking is already moving out of the realm of what Perception functions can do on their own.

    What you're referring to from your self-experience and experience with other INTJs is a smooth combination of Ni and Te that you seem to continually misinterpret as just Ni being some meta-superfunction on its own. The critical thinking part kinda has to at least partially involve the, y'know, Thinking function.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #90
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Strong critical thinking skills?
    I think these summarize what critical thinking is...




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