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View Poll Results: Which function correlates best with having critical thinking skills?

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  • Te

    9 25.00%
  • Fe

    5 13.89%
  • Ti

    29 80.56%
  • Se

    3 8.33%
  • Si

    6 16.67%
  • Ni

    13 36.11%
  • Ne

    4 11.11%
  • Fi

    9 25.00%
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  1. #61
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I see your bullshit there and double it...

    I think Ne just distorts external reality in favor of a more likeable one for the self...

    Considering this description on wiki:



    How is Ne (or Se, Te and Fe for that matter) inward directed and how does it improve and optimize one's internal thinking processes to remove self bias (which I think comes from Fi and Ti)?
    You truly believe that extraverted functions don't need critical thinking to optimise their functionality? How have you not consciously and critically thought about and improved upon your own Fe?

    What is it you consider extraverted functions good at, in fact? Because without critical thinking, they must be a laughing stock to you.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    I voted Ni, Ti and Fe. Depends on the kind of critical thinking though; this is geared toward interpersonal strategy.

  3. #63
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I see your bullshit there and double it...

    I think Ne just distorts external reality in favor of a more likeable one for the self...

    Considering this description on wiki:



    How is Ne (or Se, Te and Fe for that matter) inward directed and how does it improve and optimize one's internal thinking processes to remove self bias (which I think comes from Fi and Ti)?
    Others have said it; all types have the ability to be excellent critical thinking, and all functions have the ability to be critical. Why? Because there is a wide variety of people who do preform this well. To claim that a function can't be critical, is just, well, rediculous.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  4. #64
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You truly believe that extraverted functions don't need critical thinking to optimise their functionality? How have you not consciously and critically thought about and improved upon your own Fe?

    What is it you consider extraverted functions good at, in fact? Because without critical thinking, they must be a laughing stock to you.
    No need to get angry...

    Yes they need it, but they can't do it on their own... You cannot sharpen a blade on it's own, you need something else to temper it...

    Extraverted functions OTOH are good at gathering data from the outside as well expressing one's self in the external environment...

  5. #65
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Others have said it; all types have the ability to be excellent critical thinking, and all functions have the ability to be critical. Why? Because there is a wide variety of people who do preform this well. To claim that a function can't be critical, is just, well, rediculous.
    What if what you are saying is wrong?

  6. #66
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    No need to get angry...

    Yes they need it, but they can't do it on their own... You cannot sharpen a blade on it's own, you need something else to temper it...

    Extraverted functions OTOH are good at gathering data from the outside as well expressing one's self in the external environment...
    I wasn't angry...it was a genuine question, actually. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

    Honestly, I don't think you give extroverted functions enough credit. It aint my Fi that sharpens my Ne. Ne develops itself through being genuinely curious and following up on leads - as you said, by investigating the external environment- but it also runs analysis as it does. It doesn't just collect data - it contrasts and compares, notices little idiosyncrasies, it's mighty good at finding irony in things and it associates things with others to create the out-of-the-box thinking it is so known for. While there is no Fi valuing at that point, there certainly is organising, turning things upside down, seeing if odd ends form an entire puzzle and if patterns do consistently turn up. And each time it tries something new and gains success with that action, it'll take that new thing and try it out on the next bit of info that comes by - just to see if there is in fact a pattern of success there. And from there, an entire system, critically thought out, emerges, that is constantly improved upon.

    Hell, if we take Se - have you ever actually gotten an Se-user to gush about their passion? The way a surfer talks about the waves...it's dazzling. The information they keep track of, the analysis of movement that they take so for granted, the instant taking into account of all circumstances - there is more data there than I could ever possible fathom. And the reason they often can push themselves into situations that would be detrimental to others is because of critical thinking in that *exact* moment. Because they know the ocean, that particular wave even so intimately. There's a constant analysis of all that vital data going on in the background as they're in the Zone. It's not just collecting data and expressing themselves. It's about doing something with that data that allows you to master the waves. And while Xi gives its own flavour to that experience and has something to do with it once the surfer does come in from the waves and processes what just went on - and that improves their capabilities - I'd consider it seriously underselling Se if you attributed all the critical thinking that took place in the moment to Xi.
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  7. #67
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    No need to get angry...

    Yes they need it, but they can't do it on their own... You cannot sharpen a blade on it's own, you need something else to temper it...

    Extraverted functions OTOH are good at gathering data from the outside as well expressing one's self in the external environment...
    She's not angry. If she was, you would know. You seem accuse people of anger quite often when they actually aren't. All kinds of negative traits really, when someone disagrees with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What if what you are saying is wrong?
    ...I'm not. Look around you, all different kinds of people are able to use critical thinking really well. That's the proof.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  8. #68
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I wasn't angry...it was a genuine question, actually. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

    Honestly, I don't think you give extroverted functions enough credit. It aint my Fi that sharpens my Ne. Ne develops itself through being genuinely curious and following up on leads - as you said, by investigating the external environment- but it also runs analysis as it does. It doesn't just collect data - it contrasts and compares, notices little idiosyncrasies, it's mighty good at finding irony in things and it associates things with others to create the out-of-the-box thinking it is so known for. While there is no Fi valuing at that point, there certainly is organising, turning things upside down, seeing if odd ends form an entire puzzle and if patterns do consistently turn up. And each time it tries something new and gains success with that action, it'll take that new thing and try it out on the next bit of info that comes by - just to see if there is in fact a pattern of success there. And from there, an entire system, critically thought out, emerges, that is constantly improved upon.

    Hell, if we take Se - have you ever actually gotten an Se-user to gush about their passion? The way a surfer talks about the waves...it's dazzling. The information they keep track of, the analysis of movement that they take so for granted, the instant taking into account of all circumstances - there is more data there than I could ever possible fathom. And the reason they often can push themselves into situations that would be detrimental to others is because of critical thinking in that *exact* moment. Because they know the ocean, that particular wave even so intimately. There's a constant analysis of all that vital data going on in the background as they're in the Zone. It's not just collecting data and expressing themselves. It's about doing something with that data that allows you to master the waves. And while Xi gives its own flavour to that experience and has something to do with it once the surfer does come in from the waves and processes what just went on - and that improves their capabilities - I'd consider it seriously underselling Se if you attributed all the critical thinking that took place in the moment to Xi.
    Ok, but the rational functions, T and F, are the ones that we make reasoning with... Ne is scanning the external environment for possibilities (alternate realities), Se is scanning the environment for exact real time data... they do not pass judgment, Fi or Ti does in that case for instance...

    Internal judging (rational) functions are how you interpret (reason with) what you external (judging or perceiving) functions internalize from the outside... the latter two also serves as outlets as to how you express yourself... Ne for instance may allow one to adopt alternate personas to suit the environment or opportunize on the potential gains in the environment... Se OTOH may allow one to manipulate the environment physically so as to reach personal goals... They do not act on the internal reasoning functions (Fi or Ti)...

    You need something introverted and independent of the reasoning functions that would act as an independent 3rd party on them so as to measure their effectiveness...

    "purposeful, self-regulatory judgment which results in interpretation, analysis, evaluation, and inference, as well as explanation of the evidential, conceptual, methodological, criteriological, or contextual considerations upon which that judgement is based.
    This description says one needs to check one's own judgment for integrity and errors... in essence, self-criticism...

  9. #69
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Ok, but the rational functions, T and F, are the ones that we make reasoning with... Ne is scanning the external environment for possibilities (alternate realities), Se is scanning the environment for exact real time data... they do not pass judgment, Fi or Ti does in that case for instance...

    Internal judging (rational) functions are how you interpret (reason with) what you external (judging or perceiving) functions internalize from the outside... the latter two also serves as outlets as to how you express yourself... Ne for instance may allow one to adopt alternate personas to suit the environment or opportunize on the potential gains in the environment... Se OTOH may allow one to manipulate the environment physically so as to reach personal goals... They do not act on the internal reasoning functions (Fi or Ti)...

    You need something introverted and independent of the reasoning functions that would act as an independent 3rd party on them so as to measure their effectiveness...



    This description says one needs to check one's own judgment for integrity and errors... in essence, self-criticism...
    And to you, the process I just described, the learning process that each function goes through....somehow doesn't do self-criticism? I really do think that you're not seeing just how much those function regularise their own mastery. And I fear I do not have the..proper language to explain this to your tertiary Ti as Ti just aint my strength so any argumentation I can give you is going to be futile. So, this is where I get off, as they say. Maybe someone will be able to more eloquently put together what I mean in a way that might click.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    And to you, the process I just described, the learning process that each function goes through....somehow doesn't do self-criticism? I really do think that you're not seeing just how much those function regularise their own mastery. And I fear I do not have the..proper language to explain this to your tertiary Ti as Ti just aint my strength so any argumentation I can give you is going to be futile. So, this is where I get off, as they say. Maybe someone will be able to more eloquently put together what I mean in a way that might click.
    Thanks...

    For others who might wanna continue on, I see what you are saying but that learning process is more like a trial and error process dependent on external feedback received... I don't think it is related to self-criticism or critical-thinking but on external criticism, feedback or boundaries... I don't have a proper name for it either... It feels more like "Bad thing happens if I do this so I shouldn't make it, and good thing happens if I do this so I should do it".... It requires a second party feedback to optimize itself...

    thinking about one's thinking in a manner designed to organize and clarify, raise the efficiency of, and recognize errors and biases in one's own thinking. Critical thinking is not 'hard' thinking nor is it directed at solving problems (other than 'improving' one's own thinking). Critical thinking is inward-directed with the intent of maximizing the rationality of the thinker. One does not use critical thinking to solve problems - one uses critical thinking to improve one's process of thinking.
    As you can see from the abovegiven, what's meant by critical-thinking is something that is not externally dependent but rather internally... Something that allows the person to optimize his\her internal processes from within on his\her own without the need for an external second or third party feedback...

    It's ability to notice from time to time how one's reasoning may be at fault without the need for external feedback...

    Edit: Critical thinking is proactive whereas trial and error is reactive...

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