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View Poll Results: Which function correlates best with having critical thinking skills?

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  • Te

    9 25.00%
  • Fe

    5 13.89%
  • Ti

    29 80.56%
  • Se

    3 8.33%
  • Si

    6 16.67%
  • Ni

    13 36.11%
  • Ne

    4 11.11%
  • Fi

    9 25.00%
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  1. #91
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^That seems like an awfully Je way of viewing critical thinking.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I guess since I have the "deep" thinking function and not the "deep" intuitive function, I feel compelled to go Ti nitpicky here and say that Ni doesn't do critical thinking; it does extremely uncritical intuiting. Ni doms have always struck me as people who are so open-minded that their minds seem liable to fall out at any moment.

    This can result in really effective critical thinking when paired properly with Judging functions, but on its own it doesn't do this. I think you kind of generally overestimate how much can attributed to Ni on its own because you really like being dominant in the dominant function most correlated with giftedness...which is fair enough, but you kind of unwittingly promote the popular misperception of Ni as some kind of superpower meta-function, etc. when you approach it this way.

    I also think your Ni and Te are generally so well integrated that you don't know how to separate them, which is another example of why Ni doesn't really do critical thinking any more than any other Perception function. It's not programmed for that because too much critical thinking makes Ni feel cramped and unable consider interpretive angles that aren't necessarily logically consistent with themselves. Seriously, pure Ni on its own interprets critical thinking as too limiting. Even adding the inherent judgment associated with critical thinking is already moving out of the realm of what Perception functions can do on their own.

    What you're referring to from your self-experience and experience with other INTJs is a smooth combination of Ni and Te that you seem to continually misinterpret as just Ni being some meta-superfunction on its own. The critical thinking part kinda has to at least partially involve the, y'know, Thinking function.
    Yeah, I mean, I pretty much agree with all this.

    @Coriolis said it before, and I didn't respond, but I agree with pretty much everything she said.

    Ni, as I have said here many times, has to be "pared down" by a judging function (and preferably a Je one).

    So, yeah, without that, it can lose any and all objectivity, and, well, that's not really good for critical thinking.

    But, that being said, I said what I said - albeit, imprecisely - for a reason.

    See, in the NiTe combination, Ni does the majority of the critical thinking (at least for me).

    I'd say it's responsible for something like 80% of my critical thinking.

    Now, obviously, I'm an Ni dom, so maybe that explains why it's so high, but...

    If you listen to ENTJs talk about their aux Ni, they often sound like they're saying the same thing.

    Like, it's the Ni that serves the function of doing what we might call NiTe/TeNi-styled critical thinking.

    @FDG mentioned it above when he answered Ti and Ni, and said Ni does "skeptical investigation".

    See, the way Ni does critical thinking: it basically bends the mind around the concepts.

    Imagine concepts were physical things that existed on their own plane.

    Ni is like, it's like the silver time travel stuff from Donnie Darko.

    It sorta snakes around, peers around the corners of walls, etc.

    Now, the peering around the corners: that's Ni's form of a logical deduction.

    It does so differently than, let's say, Ti though.

    It does the "logical deduction" by peering around the conceptual corner to see what's there.

    Upon observing, it "knows" what's there, and proceeds accordingly.

    Now, granted, Te plays a role there (as does Se, et al).

    But that whole moving thru conceptual space, that's Ni.

    And that is the majority of what's going on in that action.

    Now, as I said before, granted, I am an INTJ.

    I have checked with an ENTJ on this, and, as suspected, that description was sorta beyond him.

    He doesn't have that much Ni, and as such, that whole conceptual plane of existence was foreign to him.

    For him, Ni is basically this function that figures shit out for his Te imperatives and what not.

    Like, he's Teing 80% of the time, or whatever, but then will run into a roadblock.

    That's when he'll use Ni, to figure out how to get around that roadblock.

    Or to see the roadblock be for it got there, etc.

    So there's this function that Ni serves, whether it's NiTe or TeNi cognition.

    It seems to be a bit different for each, but it does seem to revolve around problem-solving.

    Like, when the solution needs to be found, Ni is the thing that is breaking ground, finding the novel way of looking at things, in order to solve whatever problem, or question, that has come up.

    Which corroborates well with Dario Nardi's research about Ni doms: that, for whatever reason, their brains seem to go into a state of flow when they are attempting to solve a novel problem with which they are unfamiliar; whereas other types only really experience this same state of flow when they are doing something they are very familiar with.

    I mean, that's a very interesting observation.

    It basically seems to be saying that Ni's primary domain is in figuring out and solving novel, not previously seen problems and questions.

    And that squares pretty well with what one would imagine Ni's primary function should be: figuring out novel ("Aha!") solutions.

    (Btw, I hate that whole "Aha!" moment - Ni connection thing. I know why it's there, but it's just so shallow a take on it.)

    Anyway, obviously I'm then associating this novel problem-solving/question-considering with critical thinking.

    Which is fine, cuz that kind of cognition should indeed be highly associated with critical thinking.

    But Te is inherently, as Coriolis pointed to, and as I have before, wrapped up in the whole thing.

    It would look different coming from an INFJ.

    And, obviously, this NiTe/TeNi-styled critical thinking is not the only form of critical thinking.

    Obviously, all functions can be used to engage in critical thinking.

    But that answer is so obvious and boring, it doesn't really get us anywhere interesting.

    The question asked which cognitive function is most associated with critical thinking.

    Now, cognitive functions, imo, don't tend to work solely by themselves.

    Perhaps they can and do to some extent.

    But I tend to think of them as working in pairs (or sometimes more).

    And usually as one Perceiving function, and one Judging function.

    So NiTe, TiNe, FiNe, TeNi, NeTi, NeFi, etc.

    So, in light of that, since I don't think Ti acts alone (usually), nor Fi...

    But I was going to be answering for each function acting as if it did...

    I just threw out the ones that I think most contribute to critical thinking, in and of themselves.

    I said Ti, Fi, Ni, and Ne.

    Notice, I did not say Te.

    And it's not cuz I don't think it doesn't aid in critical thinking.

    And, maybe, in its way, it does so just as much as these others (perhaps it and Ne are closer to one another, in this regard).

    But I was kinda just throwin shit out there that sorta makes sense to me, not setting by-laws of how this shit necessarily works.

    Rarely do I explain anywhere close to my entire thinking on a matter, cuz doing so just takes too much time (I'd say I rarely explain more than 20%).

    But see, that other 80%, the part of the iceberg under the water... most all of that is Ni.

    Granted, it might have a Te flavor (or veneer, or coating, if you will).

    But Ni is the primary engine comin up with all that shit.

    It's peakin around conceptual corners, zooming in and out, going 50,000 feet up, then comin back down within an inch of the object of observation (I.e., the concept being examined) and examining the finer details.

    All of this is mostly unseen by those looking at an Ni dom.

    But it is what we're doing when we go into that weird state y'all see where it seems like we're no longer really there.

    The purpose of this state is to do those inner conceptual landscape mental gymnastics in order to come to understand, to accurately/properly "see" what it is that's in front of us, what it is we're dealing with.

    And, considering we do this a lot, and I think it's actually a pretty effective method of figuring shit out purely via thinking about it...

    I figured I'd say "hell, it's Ni", rep a few other functions I think also do a good job at critical thinking (albeit in different ways), and see where the thread might take us.

    All things considered, I do actually think that what @Noon said hit the bullseye most accurately.

    "Any function can fly or fail, depending on the intelligence of the individual."

    (Sorry if that's not a perfect rendition; I'm paraphrasing, and on my phone)

    Anyway, I think that hits the nail on the head, but, unsurprisingly, the functions (in combination, especially, for the INPs [TiSe/SeTi and FiSe/SeFi are not]) I mentioned also happen to be those most correlated with intelligence (as measured via IQ/giftedness).

    As for your last line, as you already know well, these are all cognitive functions.

    I considered whether a thinking function would be necessary for critical thinking.

    But I think going down that path would, ironically, lead you to some erroneous thinking.

    There's some NiTe critical thinking for ya.

    <- I seriously haven't done that for years; couldn't help myself; for old time's sake

  3. #93
    Ginkgo
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    Even though Ne looks superior at critical thinking on the surface, IMO, I'm starting to think it competes with Ni almost evenly. Ni just seems way more passive about how particular it is. Yeah, it can take on the form of complete tunnel vision, but that also means that, under the right conditions, it ignores peripheral garbage.

    That's not to say that it competes with Ti, but it's something to consider.

    As for Ne being superior to Ni, the only reason I could offer is that it's a mixed process of rejecting pure information in favor of the abstract, while considering viewpoints that might be lost to Ni (Or, if that's not the case, there's at least a greater sense of agnosticism about everything being considered). So it basically shares a strength with Ni, while retaining an advantage over Ni.

    But the more I question what constitutes "critical thinking" and feel out what's being left unsaid about it, the more I recognize my own bias here, and the more Noon's quote must be the conclusion in all of this.

  4. #94
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    Well here's the thing, @Ginkgo:

    Ne will consider many different possibilities, but will do so sometimes uncritically.

    As in, it will allow for too many possibilities, without really paring down the less likely ones.

    It doesn't seem to have the best sense of scale, or proportionality -- what amount of weight to put on each possibility.

    (Granted, it obviously can, when used intelligently, and with proper input from other functions that can help with this)

    Ni, otoh, can seem to be tunnel-visioned, or to cut out possibilities without giving them enough consideration.

    But, if we look more closely there, there are really three things that might be happening.

    First, the Ni user is a dumbass, and doesn't use enough objective functions (Te, Se, etc) to anchor themselves in objective reality.

    Second, the Ni user might just be being too dismissive in this particular instance, but it's not necessarily endemic to that individual.

    And, lastly, the Ni user is actually completely on point, and is dismissing a point correctly, giving that point the proper "weight" it deserves.

    Now, the first of these, we do see every once in a while: let's call them the INTJ123s, or perhaps the LexTalioniss of the world. They certainly happen, but they're certainly not every INJ, nor even really close to a majority, imo.

    So what you usually end up with is some kind of mixture between the second and the third: sometimes too stodgy, sometimes completely on point.

    And, if you ask me, at least when it comes to those I see here (who form the majority of the INJs I know), I think they tend to be pretty god damn reasonable people.

    When I look at Highlander, Uumalau, Coriolis, alea_iacta_est, Violaine, Vasilisa, et al: I think they tend to be highly reasonable people.

    I think the idea of INJs as a bunch of #1s is highly overblown, cuz those who are just are so fucking out there and ridiculous.

    But, for christ's sake, the other Ni doms usually feel the same way about the person.

    They look off their fucking rocker to us as well.

    So, anyway, I do think INJs will do a little #2 (no pun intended) every now and then.

    But, for the most part, I see them doing a lot of #3 .

    And it seems many from this site would agree with this as well.

    If you recall, in the thread "Which type would make the best king?", lots of people voted, and I believe all four NJs took all four top spots.

    I don't think you'd see results like those if Ni was just constantly dismissing true and important possibilities left and right for no good reason.

    So, it would seem, in the process of rejecting certain possibilities, Ni (aided by Te, Se, etc) is often actually doing a good job critically thinking.

    As I said before, tho: I am surprised at how low Ne is showing up in this poll.

    I get that pure Ne can spin a million different false possibilities.

    But I think the alternative viewpoints it offers can actually be very beneficial to critical thinking.

    Interestingly, I referenced before my look into the data, and finding Ni to be the dominant function most correlated with intelligence.

    Another observation that was readily apparent from that dataset, tho, is that Ne was the function most correlated with intelligence when in any position.

    (Well, technically, in either of the first two positions.)

  5. #95
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    The Ni-dom fapping is quite annoying. It's not a magical/mystical function. It takes key data points and plays cat's cradle with them, in order to bend everything towards end goal. It's a fun function but critical thinking greatly exceeds its abilities since it's subjective in nature. Slave Te is used to confirm bias which negates its balancing impact.

  6. #96
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I would suspect that Ne is low in this poll because, all by itself, it isn't that critical. In fact, its strength is that it isn't critical, that it pulls in all possible ideas, regardless of credibility. Brainstorming is kind of the opposite of critical thinking. It is the role of Ti, Fi, and Si to anchor the Ne ideas in the realm of critical thinking.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    The Ni-dom fapping is quite annoying. It's not a magical/mystical function. It takes key data points and plays cat's cradle with them, in order to bend everything towards end goal. It's a fun function but critical thinking greatly exceeds its abilities since it's subjective in nature. Slave Te is used to confirm bias which negates its balancing impact.
    Apologies for forgetting that Ni doms can't be right about anything because they're Ni doms

  8. #98
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Apologies for forgetting that Ni doms can't be right about anything because they're Ni doms
    Ridiculous hyperbole and manifest of Fi-tert self-righteousness. If no Ni-dom fapping, one must believe that Ni is a fail. Middle ground is where truth will lay, reliant on where the Ni-dom dots on the spectrum of reality attachment.

  9. #99
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    Strong ego. and Te.

    Think James Woods

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Ridiculous hyperbole and manifest of Fi-tert self-righteousness. If no Ni-dom fapping, one must believe that Ni is a fail. Middle ground is where truth will lay, reliant on where the Ni-dom dots on the spectrum of reality attachment.
    I love your cute little language you've invented to simply explain everything to yourself.

    Unfortunately for your argument, I'm not the one who said "critical thinking greatly exceeds its abilities".

    Everything you said was already covered far more comprehensively in what I'd written.

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