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Which typology do you believe is the most credible?

I

Infinite Bubble

Guest
I guess the Big Five is given more credence because it provides simple, observable traits without ambiguity. So it's more useful for quantifying groups of people to a more objective standard. The other three are more prone to ambiguity and concepts such as the functions are left wide open for subjective interpretation.
These differences make it generally so that MBTI, Enneagram and Socionics are more helpful for individuals and the Big Five is more helpful for the psychologists.
 

Zarathustra

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I guess the Big Five is given more credence because it provides simple, observable traits without ambiguity. So it's more useful for quantifying groups of people to a more objective standard. The other three are more prone to ambiguity and concepts such as the functions are left wide open for subjective interpretation.
These differences make it generally so that MBTI, Enneagram and Socionics are more helpful for individuals and the Big Five is more helpful for the psychologists.

Have you heard my two guys on a stage, with a lamppost, and a missing quarter analogy?

The predominance of the Big 5 fits it perfectly.
 

entropie

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At the end of the day it is all about motivation. You are at the point you want to know people cause you know none. I am past it.

I am deeply and eternally bored *cheers*
 
I

Infinite Bubble

Guest
Have you heard my two guys on a stage, with a lamppost, and a missing quarter analogy?

The predominance of the Big 5 fits it perfectly.

No, what is it?

There is no tangible external physical evidence that we can get from the mind thus far

Well, that's why these theories are so prevalent right? But even with the evidence there'll need to be a framework, like in physics for instance. Typology won't have anything to do with that of course.
 

Zarathustra

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No, what is it?

Luckily I was able to find it on Google (my default forum search utility):

People will find this heinous, but science schmience.

The problem with the scientific method is that it only cares about things that it can empirically test for (which is by no means everything).

That's why trait theory gets played up so much in academia -- because it can be tested for empirically.

But that doesn't mean type isn't actually the better way of looking at things, nor just as true, if not truer.

It just means that it can't be easily empirically tested for, and, as such, the scientific method doesn't have much it can say about it.

This then causes it to fall out of favor amongst the academic establishment, who requires such things to be empirically tested.

It's like the story of the two men on a dark stage, with a lamppost in the middle of it.

One of them is looking at the ground, seemingly searching for something, only in the area that the light from the lamppost encompasses.

The other man asks the man who is looking for something, "What are you doing?"

The man who is looking says, "I'm looking for my quarter."

The other man says, "Well, did you drop it by the lamppost?"

The man who is looking says, "No. I dropped it over there. [points off stage] But this is the only place where I can see anything."
 

BlackDog

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NiTe
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At the end of the day it is all about motivation. You are at the point you want to know people cause you know none. I am past it.

I am deeply and eternally bored *cheers*

A Truck Drivers Wife

I have been privileged,
To hold in my life,
The title that’s known
As a truck driver’s wife.
Now, women all know
Being married is rough.
But, marry a trucker,
And then let’s talk tough!
The miles that they run,
And, the job that they do,
Gives us grey hairs,
And fries our nerves too.
And when they get lonely,
And call up the house,
Who’s there for ‘em to turn to?
it ain’t Mickey Mouse!
But, through all the turmoil,
The stress, struggle, and strife,
Those men appreciate
The finer things in life,
And they’ll thank their lucky stars
For a truck drivers wife!





This is the kind of thing you have to remember.
 
I

Infinite Bubble

Guest
Luckily I was able to find it on Google (my default forum search utility):

I like that, it describes it very well. I agree, empiricism definitely has its limitations to the expense of theories that don't fit its little box. But empiricism is the best method we have right now for collecting substantially objective data, somewhat free from our subjective minds, and that's what science is about isn't it. Unfortunately it leads to too hasty a dismissal of anything that can't be verified in this manner.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Messages
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I like that, it describes it very well. I agree, empiricism definitely has its limitations to the expense of theories that don't fit its little box. But empiricism is the best method we have right now for collecting substantially objective data, somewhat free from our subjective minds, and that's what science is about isn't it. Unfortunately it leads to too hasty a dismissal of anything that can't be verified in this manner.

@bolded: Exactly.

AND then leads to an obsessive focus on anything that CAN BE verified in this manner.

Leading to things like the Big 5 becoming dominant, et many al.
 

Seymour

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I'd agree with others that the Big Five is the most empirically validated, but it's also the most flat and flavorless. It entirely lacks the the combinatorial factor that makes the MBTI interesting. Still, using google scholar with the Big Five yields a treasure trove of studies, which is great if one is looking for empirical evidence. One can relate those studies back to the MBTI (which adds in a little flavor), but looking at correlations of correlations makes things extremely tenuous.

At this point, I'd say I don't really buy into MBTI type dynamics (although there's a chance Nardi-esque research could redeem aspects of it), and think "the functions" are more an effect of preference combination (so Fi = F + P, etc). I kind of agree with Reynierse, that MBTI preferences are continuous, and one's strongest preferences (in pairs or triplets) have the greatest effect. MBTI's test/retest statistics are right up there with Big Five when preferences are viewed as a continuous scale, rather than as a dichotomy.

The enneagram I find personally very useful, but mostly for personal growth and getting insight into the ways we sabotage connection and relationships. I like that it provides a not-overly-pathologizing perspective on habitual defense mechanisms that encompasses people at various levels of mental health. I don't find the particular layout of the Enneagram and the lines of connection particularly inevitable or convincing. It seems likely to me that people shift defensive strategies when exhausted or frustrated, but which one they shift too seems just as likely to be the result of personal or environmental factors. I think it's the least scientific, hardest to create instruments for, and most difficult to study empirically of the four (Big Five, MBTI, The Ennegram, and Socionics).

Socionics I have the least use for. Not only does the problem domain overlap with the MBTI and Big Five significantly, but most of the in-depth books and studies are unavailable in English (I assume they exist). That makes it hard to evaluate studies and get a deeper view into the system. The visual identification also seems ridiculous, although I could see particular expressions or movement patterns being useful. I haven't found any socionics type a better fit for me than types in the other systems offer, so at this point it seems a personal lose/lose/lose.

As far as domains of utility: I find the MBTI useful at work in particular (and sometimes in social situations), where it helps give me a framework for understanding people's mental blind spots, and for appreciating strengths, talents and perspectives that are foreign to me. Conversely, the Enneagram has been useful for me in therapy and close relationships, and I appreciate the unpleasant insight that it provides. I don't find it particularly useful in work contexts (unless folks are particularly dysfunctional), and have found attempts to apply the enneagram to work contexts to be fairly unconvincing. Big Five is useful to me for tracking down empirical research.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I'd agree with others that the Big Five is the most empirically validated, but it's also the most flat and flavorless. It entirely lacks the the combinatorial factor that makes the MBTI interesting. Still, using google scholar with the Big Five yields a treasure trove of studies, which is great if one is looking for empirical evidence. One can relate those studies back to the MBTI (which adds in a little flavor), but looking at correlations of correlations makes things extremely tenuous.

At this point, I'd say I don't really buy in to MBTI type dynamics (although there's a chance Nardi-esque research could redeem aspects of it), and think "the functions" are more an effect of preference combination (so Fi = F + P, etc). I kind of agree with Reynierse, that MBTI preferences are continuous, and one's strongest preferences (in pairs or triplets) have the greatest effect. MBTI's test/retest statistics are right up there with Big Five when preferences are viewed as a continuous scale, rather than as a dichotomy.

The enneagram I find personally very useful, but mostly for personal growth and getting insight into the ways we sabotage connection and relationships. I like that it provides a not-overly-pathologizing perspective on habitual defense mechanisms that encompasses people at various levels of mental health. I don't find the particular layout of the Enneagram and the lines of connection particularly inevitable or convincing. It seems likely to me that people shift defensive strategies when exhausted or frustrated, but which one they ship too seems just as likely to be the result of personal or environmental factors. I think it's the least scientific, hardest to create instruments for, and most difficult to study empirically of the four (Big Five, MBTI, The Ennegram, and Socionics).

Socionics I have the least use for. Not only does the problem domain overlap with the MBTI and Big Five significantly, but most of the in-depth books and studies are unavailable in English (I assume they exist). That makes it hard to evaluate studies and get a deeper view into the system. The visual identification also seems ridiculous, although I could see particular expressions or movement patterns being useful. I haven't found any socionics type a better fit for me than types in the other systems offer, so at this point it seems a personal lose/lose/lose.

As far as domains of utility: I find the MBTI useful at work in particular (and sometimes in social situations), where it helps give me a framework for understanding people's mental blind spots, and for appreciating strengths, talents and perspectives that are foreign to me. Conversely, the Enneagram has been useful for me in therapy and close relationships, and I appreciate the unpleasant insight that it provides. I don't find it particularly useful in work contexts (unless folks are particularly dysfunctional), and have found attempts to apply the enneagram to work contexts to be fairly unconvincing. Big Five is useful to me for tracking down empirical research.

If only we had more posters like you, Seymour.

You are truly one of my favorite posters here.

That was excellent.

I disagree with you about the functions, but do so respectfully.

(Not that there's not something to what you're saying, but I can [sometimes] see Fi, Fe, Ti, Te, Ni, Ne, Si, and Se in action in people.)

Regardless, if everyone on this forum could be injected with the understanding you just expressed, we would all be so much better off.

I also completely agree with your last paragraph about MBTI and work vs the Enneagram and work. Very true and well put.
 

skylights

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Well, that's why these theories are so prevalent right? But even with the evidence there'll need to be a framework, like in physics for instance. Typology won't have anything to do with that of course.

Though don't they? The MBTI and Socionics rely on a 16-point grid; the Enneagram relies on a 9-point geometric figure with the inner triangle and outer M-ish shape. All are somewhat based in math and follow the rule of all types being intrinsically equal value-wise. The Enneagram's organization is a bit more tenuous IMO but the MBTI's pattern is pretty easy to follow. They're generally internally coherent, if not externally valid.

I've never managed until today to just be myself. I always play by the rules. I feel ashamed when I once show someone which music I like. I feel ashamed when I share my thoughts. I feel ashamed when I leave the house. And the only way to compensate it, is an overbearing ego that puts down everyone before he gets to close. Which on the other hand led to the fact that I lost any emotion for people. I feel my privatesphere violated the moment someone calls me by my forename.

Why do you people want to digger deeper ? Why cant you just let it be and become shallow citizens like the rest of the world. Life would be a thousand times easier.

I cant tell you about the complexity in life, not more. I have grown so oblivious to the rest of the world, if it would vanish tomorrow I would not care. I am trieing to get in contact again but I dont know how

:hug: They say when you feel most discouraged, help someone else...

I think maybe digging deeper is just a manifestation of desire to find meaning in life. Some people know instinctively how to create it... others feel compelled to "find" it...
 

Zarathustra

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The Enneagram's organization is a bit more tenuous IMO but the MBTI's pattern is pretty easy to follow.

The Enneagram's organization is actually far more interesting.

The reason why it's structured the way it is is quite fascinating.
 

skylights

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The Enneagram's organization is actually far more interesting.

The reason why it's structured the way it is is quite fascinating.

Z have you come across a singular origin source on why it is structured that way? I've read a number of differing accounts and have yet to see any strong indication of a foundational basis for it, but admittedly I haven't gone far with the research.
 

Zarathustra

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Z have you come across a singular origin source on why it is structured that way? I've read a number of differing accounts and have yet to see any strong indication of a foundational basis for it, but admittedly I haven't gone far with the research.

I know precisely why it's structured the way it is.

I've been thinking about making a thread on it.
 
Joined
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Typology is bullshit because it puts you into classes. It limits your behaviour to a certain set of rules and tho things like 'shadow functions' or the all-encompassing socionics want to stir against this inherent failure, it's still a failure.

They all disobey free will and thats why they will always fail.


Said the ENTP 7w8, so
 
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