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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    I like that, it describes it very well. I agree, empiricism definitely has its limitations to the expense of theories that don't fit its little box. But empiricism is the best method we have right now for collecting substantially objective data, somewhat free from our subjective minds, and that's what science is about isn't it. Unfortunately it leads to too hasty a dismissal of anything that can't be verified in this manner.
    @bolded: Exactly.

    AND then leads to an obsessive focus on anything that CAN BE verified in this manner.

    Leading to things like the Big 5 becoming dominant, et many al.

  2. #32
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I'd agree with others that the Big Five is the most empirically validated, but it's also the most flat and flavorless. It entirely lacks the the combinatorial factor that makes the MBTI interesting. Still, using google scholar with the Big Five yields a treasure trove of studies, which is great if one is looking for empirical evidence. One can relate those studies back to the MBTI (which adds in a little flavor), but looking at correlations of correlations makes things extremely tenuous.

    At this point, I'd say I don't really buy into MBTI type dynamics (although there's a chance Nardi-esque research could redeem aspects of it), and think "the functions" are more an effect of preference combination (so Fi = F + P, etc). I kind of agree with Reynierse, that MBTI preferences are continuous, and one's strongest preferences (in pairs or triplets) have the greatest effect. MBTI's test/retest statistics are right up there with Big Five when preferences are viewed as a continuous scale, rather than as a dichotomy.

    The enneagram I find personally very useful, but mostly for personal growth and getting insight into the ways we sabotage connection and relationships. I like that it provides a not-overly-pathologizing perspective on habitual defense mechanisms that encompasses people at various levels of mental health. I don't find the particular layout of the Enneagram and the lines of connection particularly inevitable or convincing. It seems likely to me that people shift defensive strategies when exhausted or frustrated, but which one they shift too seems just as likely to be the result of personal or environmental factors. I think it's the least scientific, hardest to create instruments for, and most difficult to study empirically of the four (Big Five, MBTI, The Ennegram, and Socionics).

    Socionics I have the least use for. Not only does the problem domain overlap with the MBTI and Big Five significantly, but most of the in-depth books and studies are unavailable in English (I assume they exist). That makes it hard to evaluate studies and get a deeper view into the system. The visual identification also seems ridiculous, although I could see particular expressions or movement patterns being useful. I haven't found any socionics type a better fit for me than types in the other systems offer, so at this point it seems a personal lose/lose/lose.

    As far as domains of utility: I find the MBTI useful at work in particular (and sometimes in social situations), where it helps give me a framework for understanding people's mental blind spots, and for appreciating strengths, talents and perspectives that are foreign to me. Conversely, the Enneagram has been useful for me in therapy and close relationships, and I appreciate the unpleasant insight that it provides. I don't find it particularly useful in work contexts (unless folks are particularly dysfunctional), and have found attempts to apply the enneagram to work contexts to be fairly unconvincing. Big Five is useful to me for tracking down empirical research.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I'd agree with others that the Big Five is the most empirically validated, but it's also the most flat and flavorless. It entirely lacks the the combinatorial factor that makes the MBTI interesting. Still, using google scholar with the Big Five yields a treasure trove of studies, which is great if one is looking for empirical evidence. One can relate those studies back to the MBTI (which adds in a little flavor), but looking at correlations of correlations makes things extremely tenuous.

    At this point, I'd say I don't really buy in to MBTI type dynamics (although there's a chance Nardi-esque research could redeem aspects of it), and think "the functions" are more an effect of preference combination (so Fi = F + P, etc). I kind of agree with Reynierse, that MBTI preferences are continuous, and one's strongest preferences (in pairs or triplets) have the greatest effect. MBTI's test/retest statistics are right up there with Big Five when preferences are viewed as a continuous scale, rather than as a dichotomy.

    The enneagram I find personally very useful, but mostly for personal growth and getting insight into the ways we sabotage connection and relationships. I like that it provides a not-overly-pathologizing perspective on habitual defense mechanisms that encompasses people at various levels of mental health. I don't find the particular layout of the Enneagram and the lines of connection particularly inevitable or convincing. It seems likely to me that people shift defensive strategies when exhausted or frustrated, but which one they ship too seems just as likely to be the result of personal or environmental factors. I think it's the least scientific, hardest to create instruments for, and most difficult to study empirically of the four (Big Five, MBTI, The Ennegram, and Socionics).

    Socionics I have the least use for. Not only does the problem domain overlap with the MBTI and Big Five significantly, but most of the in-depth books and studies are unavailable in English (I assume they exist). That makes it hard to evaluate studies and get a deeper view into the system. The visual identification also seems ridiculous, although I could see particular expressions or movement patterns being useful. I haven't found any socionics type a better fit for me than types in the other systems offer, so at this point it seems a personal lose/lose/lose.

    As far as domains of utility: I find the MBTI useful at work in particular (and sometimes in social situations), where it helps give me a framework for understanding people's mental blind spots, and for appreciating strengths, talents and perspectives that are foreign to me. Conversely, the Enneagram has been useful for me in therapy and close relationships, and I appreciate the unpleasant insight that it provides. I don't find it particularly useful in work contexts (unless folks are particularly dysfunctional), and have found attempts to apply the enneagram to work contexts to be fairly unconvincing. Big Five is useful to me for tracking down empirical research.
    If only we had more posters like you, Seymour.

    You are truly one of my favorite posters here.

    That was excellent.

    I disagree with you about the functions, but do so respectfully.

    (Not that there's not something to what you're saying, but I can [sometimes] see Fi, Fe, Ti, Te, Ni, Ne, Si, and Se in action in people.)

    Regardless, if everyone on this forum could be injected with the understanding you just expressed, we would all be so much better off.

    I also completely agree with your last paragraph about MBTI and work vs the Enneagram and work. Very true and well put.

  4. #34
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Well, that's why these theories are so prevalent right? But even with the evidence there'll need to be a framework, like in physics for instance. Typology won't have anything to do with that of course.
    Though don't they? The MBTI and Socionics rely on a 16-point grid; the Enneagram relies on a 9-point geometric figure with the inner triangle and outer M-ish shape. All are somewhat based in math and follow the rule of all types being intrinsically equal value-wise. The Enneagram's organization is a bit more tenuous IMO but the MBTI's pattern is pretty easy to follow. They're generally internally coherent, if not externally valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I've never managed until today to just be myself. I always play by the rules. I feel ashamed when I once show someone which music I like. I feel ashamed when I share my thoughts. I feel ashamed when I leave the house. And the only way to compensate it, is an overbearing ego that puts down everyone before he gets to close. Which on the other hand led to the fact that I lost any emotion for people. I feel my privatesphere violated the moment someone calls me by my forename.

    Why do you people want to digger deeper ? Why cant you just let it be and become shallow citizens like the rest of the world. Life would be a thousand times easier.

    I cant tell you about the complexity in life, not more. I have grown so oblivious to the rest of the world, if it would vanish tomorrow I would not care. I am trieing to get in contact again but I dont know how
    They say when you feel most discouraged, help someone else...

    I think maybe digging deeper is just a manifestation of desire to find meaning in life. Some people know instinctively how to create it... others feel compelled to "find" it...

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    The Enneagram's organization is a bit more tenuous IMO but the MBTI's pattern is pretty easy to follow.
    The Enneagram's organization is actually far more interesting.

    The reason why it's structured the way it is is quite fascinating.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The Enneagram's organization is actually far more interesting.

    The reason why it's structured the way it is is quite fascinating.
    Z have you come across a singular origin source on why it is structured that way? I've read a number of differing accounts and have yet to see any strong indication of a foundational basis for it, but admittedly I haven't gone far with the research.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Z have you come across a singular origin source on why it is structured that way? I've read a number of differing accounts and have yet to see any strong indication of a foundational basis for it, but admittedly I haven't gone far with the research.
    I know precisely why it's structured the way it is.

    I've been thinking about making a thread on it.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Typology is bullshit because it puts you into classes. It limits your behaviour to a certain set of rules and tho things like 'shadow functions' or the all-encompassing socionics want to stir against this inherent failure, it's still a failure.

    They all disobey free will and thats why they will always fail.

    Said the ENTP 7w8, so
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I know precisely why it's structured the way it is.

    I've been thinking about making a thread on it.
    Please do.

  10. #40
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    Socionics, VI edition.

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