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  1. #11
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Ehh I'm not sure I really understand why you're associating the issues you have with my perception with Americans as a whole. While I am certainly American, I feel like I am a fairly poor representative of the average American in terms of spirituality, views of psychology, views of personality theories, and overall background and personality.

    I do believe the theories are not particularly scientifically valid, but are nevertheless useful tools.

    Consider - with the technology we currently have, it is not possible to landscape and categorize the inner workings of our minds in terms of the frequent patterns of cognition we use, but it is evident from shared discussion that we do have patterns that are prominent in certain people and are prominent across certain groups. So it may be in part that technology is just not there yet, but also there is still the mind-body problem to get past. I actually did a literature-based research project tracing the mind-body problem and its history from Descartes to the present, and its implications for neuroscience and other fields. It's a fascinating topic, and one that is still largely unsolved. Where does body end and mind begin, and vice versa? What is the difference? How come we can translate some things but not others? How come we have some degree of influence in either direction but not complete?

    As for the States... I don't find there to be much "choked spiritualism" here. I live in the South, where it is more common to find people who are so spiritual that they are willing to completely disregard scientific evidence when it runs up against religious tradition, rather than reconsidering historical beliefs or attempting to integrate the two.
    I tell you, you have bad self-confidence and you give me a school class lecture about brain physiognomy. Really..
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #12
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    They're all shit

  3. #13
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Enneagram is wonderful.

  4. #14
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I tell you, you have bad self-confidence and you give me a school class lecture about brain physiognomy. Really..
    I tried to address the issues you brought up with my post. If I misunderstood and didn't answer appropriately, I would be happy to address whatever you were after.

    I don't think that personally I am super self-confident but I feel fairly competent intellectually. My lack of confidence has more to do with body image issues and fear of looking stupid. Neither of those seem very applicable to my opinion of the credibility of typology theories.

  5. #15
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nights and Days View Post
    Enneagram is wonderful.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I tried to address the issues you brought up with my post. If I misunderstood and didn't answer appropriately, I would be happy to address whatever you were after.
    I always have to think of my work colleague. A guy who does not have it all but who is perfectly fine in his life. Well asserted and gets along like the total pro. Yes, I am very envy on him. If I was to tell him about mbti, ennegram or socionics, he'd finally be convinced that I am nuts. And so would be the rest of the world, I know.

    Does that mean I know something they dont ? Cant be cause they get along far more well with each other than I get along with them. Does that mean, I am a bearer of special knowledge that I cant use ? Something like that.

    I wonder given all these theories; they may be a vindication for a mind that needs substance, but what is their real world application ? Do they really work ? Isnt the real world far more shallow then the deepest of our deep theories may ever grasp ?

    Who gives a fuck in the end about you, who knew it. I knew mbti before, I knew it. My intuition is so strong I can interpret shit into the world and back. And what did it give me ? it made me a sarcastic old man, whose best way to not get personal with people is Blitzkrieg.

    You folks know nothing about the complexity of spiritualistic half-empiric type systematizing of the world. Not the least bit
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #16
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I always have to think of my work colleague. A guy who does not have it all but who is perfectly fine in his life. Well asserted and gets along like the total pro. Yes, I am very envy on him. If I was to tell him about mbti, ennegram or socionics, he'd finally be convinced that I am nuts. And so would be the rest of the world, I know.

    Does that mean I know something they dont ? Cant be cause they get along far more well with each other than I get along with them. Does that mean, I am a bearer of special knowledge that I cant use ? Something like that.

    I wonder given all these theories; they may be a vindication for a mind that needs substance, but what is their real world application ? Do they really work ? Isnt the real world far more shallow then the deepest of our deep theories may ever grasp ?

    Who gives a fuck in the end about you, who knew it. I knew mbti before, I knew it. My intuition is so strong I can interpret shit into the world and back. And what did it give me ? it made me a sarcastic old man, whose best way to not get personal with people is Blitzkrieg.

    You folks know nothing about the complexity of spiritualistic half-empiric type systematizing of the world. Not the least bit


    I find it strange that you quoted me after reading this post.

  7. #17
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I always have to think of my work colleague. A guy who does not have it all but who is perfectly fine in his life. Well asserted and gets along like the total pro. Yes, I am very envy on him. If I was to tell him about mbti, ennegram or socionics, he'd finally be convinced that I am nuts. And so would be the rest of the world, I know.

    Does that mean I know something they dont ? Cant be cause they get along far more well with each other than I get along with them. Does that mean, I am a bearer of special knowledge that I cant use ? Something like that.

    I wonder given all these theories; they may be a vindication for a mind that needs substance, but what is their real world application ? Do they really work ? Isnt the real world far more shallow then the deepest of our deep theories may ever grasp ?

    Who gives a fuck in the end about you, who knew it. I knew mbti before, I knew it. My intuition is so strong I can interpret shit into the world and back. And what did it give me ? it made me a sarcastic old man, whose best way to not get personal with people is Blitzkrieg.

    You folks know nothing about the complexity of spiritualistic half-empiric type systematizing of the world. Not the least bit
    Playing with arcane theories and being considered crazy for it by the realists in life is not new, though. "Magicians", "witches", alchemists, eccentrics. You and I come from a long line of people who search deep because we feel the drive to do so. Who knows why. It makes us unhappy but it makes us satisfied. Would you rather spend life never having ripped apart the fabric of the world and seeing how it works? I think you and I would go crazy if we didn't dig deeper. I think we are just born that way. I think your coworker is lucky but I don't think you and I are like him. There are some people that are happy not digging deeper into human minds... they are lucky in a lot of ways, though they probably dig into other things. And then there is us.

    Do the theories work? I don't know. Does it matter? Ultimately I guess the question is whether it makes our lives better. The MBTI gave me the understanding I needed to finally communicate effectively with my dad (INTP). The Enneagram has given me a lot of insight into my own stress. Maybe they are junk... probably they are scientific junk. But like you said, spiritually there's something there.

    Tell me more about the complexity if you feel like it. You know Ne is happy to swim in half-systems and complex wholes.


    *** General note - this is not a N vs. S thing. I just mean there are people who are happy to live without digging into psychology and there are others who are not.

  8. #18
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    What is your system then ?
    See what applies to me, go "huh, interesting" then carry about my day as usual until something applicable comes up where I use it as one resource to find most suitable solution.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so


  9. #19
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Playing with arcane theories and being considered crazy for it by the realists in life is not new, though. "Magicians", "witches", alchemists, eccentrics. You and I come from a long line of people who search deep because we feel the drive to do so. Who knows why. It makes us unhappy but it makes us satisfied. Would you rather spend life never having ripped apart the fabric of the world and seeing how it works? I think you and I would go crazy if we didn't dig deeper. I think we are just born that way. I think your coworker is lucky but I don't think you and I are like him. There are some people that are happy not digging deeper... they are lucky in a lot of ways. And then there is us.
    I've never managed until today to just be myself. I always play by the rules. I feel ashamed when I once show someone which music I like. I feel ashamed when I share my thoughts. I feel ashamed when I leave the house. And the only way to compensate it, is an overbearing ego that puts down everyone before he gets to close. Which on the other hand led to the fact that I lost any emotion for people. I feel my privatesphere violated the moment someone calls me by my forename.

    Why do you people want to digger deeper ? Why cant you just let it be and become shallow citizens like the rest of the world. Life would be a thousand times easier.

    I cant tell you about the complexity in life, not more. I have grown so oblivious to the rest of the world, if it would vanish tomorrow I would not care. I am trieing to get in contact again but I dont know how
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #20
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    Depends on what you mean by "credible".

    There are three kinds of truth: correspondential, internally consistent, and pragmatic.

    We can sort cross of the second, cuz that just means the systems abide by their own rules, which, well, hopefully they do.

    The first means the idea actually corresponds to reality; the third means the idea, for whatever reason, is useful.

    Lastly, I should note, that I don't consider MBTI and Socionics separate: they are both Jungian typology, imo.

    So, between Enneagram typology and Jungian typology, which do I find more credible?

    I used to side with Jungian, and I still think there is plenty of credibility to it.

    But over the last 2-3 years, I have come to find the Enneagram so damn useful, I'd have to go with it now.

    I made this thread almost 3.5 yrs ago: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ad.php?t=38017

    At the time, I voted that I identified with my MBTI type more than my Enneagram type.

    Nowadays, I'm not so sure which I'd answer -- probably both equally.

    I don't think either will necessarily gain scientific credibility.

    But I think the Big 5 is a flawed instrument, and not truly scientific either.

    It just lends itself more easily to methods that are considered scientifically rigorous.

    I think things can be completely 100% true without science really being able to say much about them.

    I don't want to say neither the Enneagram nor Jungian typology could eventually be validated or invalidated, to some extent, by science.

    But the extent to which they will be invalidated, expressed as a %, with 0% being completely in validated, and 100% being completely validated... I would assume that from an invalidation perspective, it could only really ever get to ~40% (cuz the ideas just don't lend themselves too well to invalidation, I don't think). As for validation, I think they could actually become more validated than invalidated, cuz some of evidence could pop up that is close to undeniable. If some more neuroscience based stuff, a la Nardi's research, 20-30 yrs down the road starts validating some of this stuff, I wouldn't be too surprised.

    It also depends on the understanding of type you're talking about: flexible and nuanced and intelligent, or rigid and dumb like @yeghor's.

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