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  1. #1
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Default Depressive extraverts and the definition of extraversion

    Since personality is considered to be mostly affected by genes and one's upbringing, it's clear that by that definition depressive extraverts must be common. They will be seen as (and behave like) introverts by their environment which makes them hard to type. Most personality tests will fail to classify these people correctly and that challenges the value of personality tests as a whole, not only within MBTI.
    This leads me to the question of how extraversion is defined in its most elemental aspects. There are a lot of theories using the same term but meaning something different. I know how Jung saw extraversion, but I think personality goes beyond that and I would appreciate an independent approach for this topic.

    Some of the most common questions regarding extraversion look something like this:
    • Do you like to go out?
    • Do you have a broad circle of friends?
    • Are you energized by interacting with people?


    This is contradictionary to the way a person with a diagnosed major depression would act. Now, if you go by the definition that the human personality is stable and hardly changes, the general approach by society that extraversion is defined by an individual's social behavior becomes unacceptable.

    How do you personally view extraversion, independently of Jungian theory or similar personality systems?
    4w3 - 7w6 - 1w9 : The Idealist

  2. #2
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    There are two forms, behavioral extraversion and cognitive extraversion. Behavrioral is exactly the things you mention(going out etc). Cognitive refers to how a person takes in information. I guess you could say behavioral psychology measures your output and cognitive psychology your input. As far as depression is concerned a person is usually aware they are depressed, as a result I would avoid typing that person when they are depressed. That should avoid misleading conclusions. Also I think behavioral psychology is not measuring a phenomena which is directly gene determined. Hence one's degree of behavioral extraversion is subject to change.

  3. #3
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    There are two forms, behavioral extraversion and cognitive extraversion. Behavrioral is exactly the things you mention(going out etc). Cognitive refers to how a person takes in information. I guess you could say behavioral psychology measures your output and cognitive psychology your input. As far as depression is concerned a person is usually aware they are depressed, as a result I would avoid typing that person when they are depressed. That should avoid misleading conclusions. Also I think behavioral psychology is not measuring a phenomena which is directly gene determined. Hence one's degree of behavioral extraversion is subject to change.
    That sounds right. Many typologies tend to mix up these two forms or completely leave out the cognitive part, though.

    Btw, it didn't take me long to realize that your avatar is a manson painting.
    4w3 - 7w6 - 1w9 : The Idealist

  4. #4
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Since personality is considered to be mostly affected by genes and one's upbringing, it's clear that by that definition depressive extraverts must be common. They will be seen as (and behave like) introverts by their environment which makes them hard to type. Most personality tests will fail to classify these people correctly and that challenges the value of personality tests as a whole, not only within MBTI.
    This leads me to the question of how extraversion is defined in its most elemental aspects. There are a lot of theories using the same term but meaning something different. I know how Jung saw extraversion, but I think personality goes beyond that and I would appreciate an independent approach for this topic.

    Some of the most common questions regarding extraversion look something like this:
    • Do you like to go out?
    • Do you have a broad circle of friends?
    • Are you energized by interacting with people?

    I think the first two points are the natural consequences of the third (when you're in a "healthy" state). Being energized by interactions isn't necessarily visible for others. It's really a matter of inner balance, more than considerations of the society towards your apparent behavior.

    I'm not that into meaningless parties just for the sake of mundanities, for example (In fact, I expect them to be opportunities to create connections with more people, but not as empty rituals, even though it still is energizing). But for society, extraversion is about some kind of "party people", and the difference between extraverts and introverts only depends on what can be noticed on the surface.
    I also have a friend always playing the goofy guy at parties (and most of the time...), you'd swear from the outside he's an extravert and yet... he's an introvert.

    When you're truly depressive, you become avoidant and reclusive in all cases, and drop what pleased you before, so the difference between introverts and extroverts isn't so obvious. It'd be like comparing two zombies (maybe the introvert is the one eating himself while the extrovert's assaulting others :/ ).
    @Typh0n summarized it well

  5. #5
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Extraversion is relating the self & everything else to the object (external world), so that the focus is there. Introversion is relating the self & everything else to the subject (inner world), so the focus is there. Jung said either may "start" with the object or subject, but their thinking usually ends up at their preference. That means thoughts are an end for introverts, with even interaction & activity & consideration of the object often approached as simply informing their inner world (for example), which they explore & refine; but for the extrovert, thoughts are to be given external form, whether it's with expression or action, and so they explore & refine the object.

    I think studies have shown extraverts require more external stimulation than introverts, who get over-stimulated far more easily. I'd say this shows a connection between certain "stereotypes" about each.

    Of course, all humans need interaction & downtime. That's why it's confusing for many to type using that standard. They also take it way too literally instead of considering what's being illustrated.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #6
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Btw, it didn't take me long to realize that your avatar is a manson painting.
    Is it?

  7. #7
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Extraversion is relating the self & everything else to the object (external world), so that the focus is there. Introversion is relating the self & everything else to the subject (inner world), so the focus is there. Jung said either may "start" with the object or subject, but their thinking usually ends up at their preference. That means thoughts are an end for introverts, with even interaction & activity & consideration of the object often approached as simply informing their inner world (for example), which they explore & refine; but for the extrovert, thoughts are to be given external form, whether it's with expression or action, and so they explore & refine the object.

    I think studies have shown extraverts require more external stimulation than introverts, who get over-stimulated far more easily. I'd say this shows a connection between certain "stereotypes" about each.

    Of course, all humans need interaction & downtime. That's why it's confusing for many to type using that standard. They also take it way too literally instead of considering what's being illustrated.
    I agree that there is a "link" between how one behaves and how one perceives information and it needs to be told but in case of someone with mental illness(which is what, I beleive the op was inquiring about) the behavior might be really "off" from a "healthy" person, hence difficult to correlate properly.

  8. #8
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Speaking of classical introversion vs. extroversion, I sort of see it like this. What gives you more joy; spending time with people, or spending time alone? It's a scale of course, but I think a big mistake I made in regards of introversion/extroversion to myself is how I defined "energized". I thought it meant giving one more energy. I always feel tired more quickly when I am around people. However, I feel better being around people. I feel happy, and will want to stay around people for as long as I can. Yes I'll get tired, because my energy reserves don't last long, but all kinds of tasks do that. I ultimately feel happier, more alive, and with a better outlook on the world when I am around people. What do you get more out of? That is where it all lies really, that's what "energizing" means.

    I also experience depression quite frequently (and it can get very severe) and that for some can color it towards introversion; most people hermit and hide from others when in the grip of it. Things go more internal, and it makes it really hard to see through the distortion. This is also precisely the reason why I thought I was an introvert for so many years. Once I reflected on it though, and determined who I am when I am in a neutral/happy state (i.e. my most natural self) that it became much more clear. Really, it's a matter of determining what your natural state is, and that is what marks it.

    When I look back on it, it's actually kind of ridiculous that I ever saw myself as an introvert (in terms of the classical term, and in Jung/MBTI terms).
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  9. #9
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    How do you personally view extraversion
    It is a result of psychophobia - the unreasonable fear of the psyche.

    To appease this unreasonable fear we reify the psyche - that is, we turn the psyche from a conscious person into a thing.

    And once we have turned the conscious person into a thing, we can say all things are the same and so we can apply the same laws to everything, and the worse for you if you don't follow them.

    Does this sound familiar? It should because Baconian, Gallilean and Newtonian science removed consciousness from science.

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