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  1. #11
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion 4.5 View Post
    That's even worse, because it means they were racists as well as slave masters. They were a bunch of hypocrites who contributed nothing to the world by sitting around trying to sound intelligent.

    In reality, they accomplished nothing. Probably hundreds of ancient cultures did what they did, and it was just forgotten.

    No, the superstitious monks who wrote all their stuff down are the ones who actually made the contributions to civilization which people like Leonardo Da Vinci who understood the real world were able to use to create technologies which later they rationalized with a bunch of Greek stuff. The Greeks are highly overrated. The Italians are the ones who started it all.
    ...

    Wut?

    I'm sorry I've no patience for anyone today but do you know how much the Italians owe to the greek culture ?

    Actually the Romans were a link between ancient Greek culture and the modern western civilization. Whether it is the idea of democracy, freedom, human dignity or equality (and, oh, university), it always returns to the greek heritage.

  2. #12
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    ...

    Wut?

    I'm sorry I've no patience for anyone today but do you know how much the Italians owe to the greek culture ?

    Actually the Romans were a link between ancient Greek culture and the modern western civilization. Whether it is the idea of democracy, freedom, human dignity or equality (and, oh, university), it always returns to the greek heritage.

    While you are right in saying that the Romans borrowed alot from the Greeks, contemporary notions of democracy based on social contract, freedom, equality and human dignity stem from enlightenment thinking and not the ancient Greeks.

  3. #13
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Many of us are deracinated in the modern world, we find ourselves homeless, not knowing where we came from, and so not know where we are going. So reading and writing Ancient Greek orientates us to our modern world and to our Western Civilization.
    Okay. I agree especially with the last bit. But explain to me why it is better to study a dead language from our past, instead of spending my time studying the currently-spoken language of my ancestors in Europe. I can just read the Greek texts in translation. I've already done so with Plato.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    While you are right in saying that the Romans borrowed alot from the Greeks, contemporary notions of democracy based on social contract, freedom, equality and human dignity stem from enlightenment thinking and not the ancient Greeks.
    Yes and no, most of these notions were rooted in the greek culture, if we track their genealogy. As you know enlightenment thinkers haven't generated cultural values ex nihilo.
    For instance the idea of human dignity came with Cicero (so way before the 18th...), but he probably wouldn't have formulated it if he hadn't been skilled in Greek philosophy/philology (and known as a great translator).

  5. #15
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    ...

    Wut?

    I'm sorry I've no patience for anyone today but do you know how much the Italians owe to the greek culture ?

    Actually the Romans were a link between ancient Greek culture and the modern western civilization. Whether it is the idea of democracy, freedom, human dignity or equality (and, oh, university), it always returns to the greek heritage.
    I was trying out my trolling skills.

    I have studied the Romans in great detail, reading most of the original sources available and dozens of scholarly works. I have studied the Ancient Greeks very little except in the Roman context, though. I don't much like them because they seem perverted, to be honest. Just a really sick culture. The Romans do a lot of bad stuff, too, but it's more understandable, somehow. And the Romans beat the Greeks because their cultural developments only led to their military decline.

    But I admittedly don't think much of the Greeks. Praising the Greeks for Hellenizing the ancient world is like praising the Europeans for colonizing the modern world. Sure, they did it, but they didn't do it for altruistic motives. And then they went soft and lost it all. If you're going to conquer the world, then do it thoroughly!

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    Yes and no, most of these notions were rooted in the greek culture, if we track their genealogy. As you know enlightenment thinkers haven't generated cultural values ex nihilo.
    For instance the idea of human dignity came with Cicero (so way before the 18th...), but he probably wouldn't have formulated it if he hadn't been skilled in Greek philosophy/philology (and known as a great translator).
    I am impressed by you but so far I haven't been able to engage with you. All I know is that you are extroverted and probably not OE. But so far I have not been abe to figure out whether you are impressive or just trying to impress us.

    I hestitate to ask anything from you as you seen hesitant to reply. But I would be grateful if you would reveal yourself.

    Perhaps this is not possible and you will continue to leave us wondering.

  7. #17
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion 4.5 View Post
    Okay. I agree especially with the last bit. But explain to me why it is better to study a dead language from our past, instead of spending my time studying the currently-spoken language of my ancestors in Europe. I can just read the Greek texts in translation. I've already done so with Plato.
    If you read and write Ancient Greek, you will have the mind of an Ancient Greek. This will give you a unique perspective on moderen Europe. And who knows what you may make of Oz.

  8. #18
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    If you read and write Ancient Greek, you will have the mind of an Ancient Greek. This will give you a unique perspective on moderen Europe. And who knows what you may make of Oz.
    English is a terrible language. It is very unexpressive compared to Spanish and presumably Latin also. How does Ancient Greek stack up next to Spanish?

  9. #19
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion 4.5 View Post
    English is a terrible language. It is very unexpressive compared to Spanish and presumably Latin also. How does Ancient Greek stack up next to Spanish?
    I think the real reason you would learn to read and write Ancient Greek is to change yourself.

    But unless you have an appetite to change yourself, it is better to remain as you are.

    Changing yourself is a step into the unknown and is dangerous. So unless you have the appetite it is better not to take a bite. Look what happened to Adam in the Garden of Eden.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I am impressed by you but so far I haven't been able to engage with you. All I know is that you are extroverted and probably not OE. But so far I have not been abe to figure out whether you are impressive or just trying to impress us.

    I hestitate to ask anything from you as you seen hesitant to reply. But I would be grateful if you would reveal yourself.

    Perhaps this is not possible and you will continue to leave us wondering.
    No, if I'm little quiet on it, it's because I don't see the point (of discussing my OE) (by the way I got tired of this kind of "mensans" (and others gifted groups) shit, masturbating their brains about how-special-I-am-and-not-able-to-fit, how-I-was-lazy-at-school-but-had-a-so-brilliant(-and-still-unused)-potential blablabla instead of contributing significantly to improve society, CQFD).

    And if I seemed to be hesitating, it's just that, in the meantine, I forgot to answer (and you're not the only victim of my negligence lol)

    I didn't want to prove anything and don't take it personnally but:

    1) When I'm discussing ideas, I don't necessarily want them to be brought down to a personal level

    2) If I were an old man, I probably wouldn't sound "impressive" nor be suspected to try to impress someone => ask yourself why, not me

    3) And most important, I'm european so I know what are the issues of this debate and why we've let Greece sink in the name of financial speculation (WTF ?!) and Europe has no future: there are so many people who are brain-washed, unaware of the importance of their common past and historical origins because of the social engineering which wants us to be rootless, politically disengaged, nihilists, apathetic consumers and exploitable workers, only living for instant gratification and our own little egotistical outlook...

    4) I would also like to add that, in that perspective, most of those on thriving mode aren't like the ancient greeks or others leisure classes: they're no longer interested by inner quest or intellectual interests nor involved in civic life, but are spending their entire life on entertainments and consumption.
    THAT is the essential difference.

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