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  1. #51
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    OK I'll justify it. When we are nice to each other, like kids saying yes sir and no ma'am to adults, opening doors, saying thanks and just generally being respectful makes life more enjoyable. Enough people where I'm from agree with this assertion that manners have been normalized in society. Now up north people are kind of jerks all the time, and consequently, I haven't liked most of the people from NYC I've met.
    The underlying "manners" or perhaps better, courtesy, is for instance to be respectful to one's elders. What makes "yes, sir" respectful, though? Simple convention. Some languages don't even have words for sir and ma'am. In some cultures and contexts, everyone goes by first name, and respect is shown through actions and manner of speaking (e.g. not yelling at someone). In this sense, the specific actions or words used to convey respect are arbitrary. And we haven't even considered individual differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The reason hetero marriage is "normal" is that kids come from that style of relationship. And kids are kind of important to the continuation of the species. Now that we have more people on the planet, the need to procreate is less urgent (but not by a lot). This lessening of the need to procreate has allowed alternative relationship to become (relatively) mainstream, and has somewhat decreased to emphasis we put on procreative relationships.

    The reason (once the whole culture war thing has died down [if it ever does]) hetero relationships will always be more normal with regard to the public at large is that kids will always be a fundamental need.
    Hetero relationships, just like right handedness, will probably always be more commonplace, but that is not the same thing as normal. There has always also been a minority of hetero relationships that do not produce children. These are just as normal, though also uncommon. Some societies have much better traditions of fostering, adoption, or otherwise matching up childless adults with parentless children. This is just one way gay couples can become parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Over the years civilizations figure out what their people like and what maximizes social benefits to the populace. This is why I'm somewhat traditional, because I'm not willing to throw out centuries of trial and error and cultural evolution because some johhny come lately thinks he's the first person who ever had a good idea.
    Over the years, groups in power impose their way of doing things on everyone else. This can be simply for their own comfort, or to control and manipulate everyone else. No tradition is valuable simply for being a tradition, except as a history lesson. It is one thing to retain traditions that still have practical use. The rest is just constricting deadwood.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #52
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    As an offshoot of the topic of rape culture, I think it doesn't really benefit anyone that there is a social convention of not saying no. If someone invites you to do something and you just don't feel like it it shouldn't be considered rude to say so. You shouldn't have to lie. If you don't like someone you shouldn't have to act like you do, but if you are friends with someone it should be understood that you do like that person and that if you say you don't feel like it it doesn't mean you don't like the person. I think whatever a person wants and feels should be legitimate and people should understand it. An explanation should be given in some cases, and people should try to be nice and polite and all that, but feelings aren't bad things. I don't like it if someone says no without explanation, but if they really don't feel like it I don't hold it against them and i don;'t expect them to say yes anyway. And I don't expect someone to say they want to hang out with me if they don't intend to do it. That makes me kind of mad actually. There was this one friend I used to have who I eventually felt I had nothing in common with, and I just told her so. I felt she deserved an explanation for me ending our friendship.

    Anyway I think a lot of social conventions are kind of useless and silly. I've come to understand the point of most of them.

  3. #53
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    As an offshoot of the topic of rape culture, I think it doesn't really benefit anyone that there is a social convention of not saying no. If someone invites you to do something and you just don't feel like it it shouldn't be considered rude to say so. You shouldn't have to lie. If you don't like someone you shouldn't have to act like you do, but if you are friends with someone it should be understood that you do like that person and that if you say you don't feel like it it doesn't mean you don't like the person. I think whatever a person wants and feels should be legitimate and people should understand it. An explanation should be given in some cases, and people should try to be nice and polite and all that, but feelings aren't bad things. I don't like it if someone says no without explanation, but if they really don't feel like it I don't hold it against them and i don;'t expect them to say yes anyway. And I don't expect someone to say they want to hang out with me if they don't intend to do it. That makes me kind of mad actually. There was this one friend I used to have who I eventually felt I had nothing in common with, and I just told her so. I felt she deserved an explanation for me ending our friendship.
    Anyway I think a lot of social conventions are kind of useless and silly. I've come to understand the point of most of them.
    the sad part is, America is one of the cultures in the world where people are most comfortable saying no
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Hetero relationships, just like right handedness, will probably always be more commonplace, but that is not the same thing as normal.
    That is the definition of normal....

    nor·mal
    ˈnôrməl/
    adjective
    adjective: normal

    1. conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
    EDIT: I'll stick with Winston Churchill on this one...


  5. #55
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    That is the definition of normal....
    I think what she was going at (and correct me if I'm wrong @Coriolis) is the social definition of the word, i.e. the acceptability of "normal" and the shunning of the "abnormal". For example, you don't call someone with brown eyes "normal" and someone with green eyes "abnormal". You just say "she has brown eyes" and and "he has green eyes."
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    There was a thread before about the difference between manners and etiquette. I wonder if most things people are listing here, falls under etiquette versus manners.

  7. #57
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    I don't know why people at work never tell the supervisor why he doesn't tell people what they're next appointment is meant for in my business hour.

    It's because my supervisor told my coworker that he wasn't good enough for the newest team member on my cell phone business's shift.

    He told my boss that he wasn't strong for doing her dirty business scam. "I told you my secret", said the mailman coworker.

  8. #58
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    filters.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  9. #59
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I think what she was going at (and correct me if I'm wrong @Coriolis) is the social definition of the word, i.e. the acceptability of "normal" and the shunning of the "abnormal". For example, you don't call someone with brown eyes "normal" and someone with green eyes "abnormal". You just say "she has brown eyes" and and "he has green eyes."
    Mainly I was pointing out the difference between stating a fact and making a value judgment. It may be a fact that certain characteristics or behaviors are in the minority. This does not presuppose, however, that they are worse or less desirable than the more commonplace attributes. Sometimes these are far more desirable.

    By DB's quoted definition, then, left-handed folks are abnormal because they don't correspond to the standard of right-handedness. Fortunately we don't put much stock in handedness standards any longer. It's taking us awhile to reach the same point with sexual orientation.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    I think what she was going at (and correct me if I'm wrong @Coriolis) is the social definition of the word, i.e. the acceptability of "normal" and the shunning of the "abnormal". For example, you don't call someone with brown eyes "normal" and someone with green eyes "abnormal". You just say "she has brown eyes" and and "he has green eyes."
    One thing being normal doesn't necessitate another thing being shunned. It could be just less common, less normal.

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