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  1. #31
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    This whole thread just sounds like a lot of people tired of having to have manners.

  2. #32
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Not telling someone you like/ love them when you know it.

    Not saying out loud when someone impresses you or you appreciate them.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  3. #33
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    This whole thread just sounds like a lot of people tired of having to have manners.
    Except that most of those 'manners' are imposed arbitrarily by a society sticking to them...because...to not do so would....cause unease?

    If people didn't give a toss about most of these pointless social goalposts they would be a lot happier and less inclined to have knee-jerk reactions because things aren't "as they should be" which is about as far as most people's considerations really go towards these manners.

    I don't mind opening doors I do that for everyone equally, albeit based on mood. Why? Because I can reason that it is one of the few social mannerisms that actually does affect people adversely, (no matter how minutely), since very few people enjoy a door closing in their faces.
    In what way does using the 'incorrect' cutlery actually affect someone or even yourself? Eating with the mouth open and eating with hands is of course a point against hygiene, so those are in.

    By the way I'm not associating you as a society judge here Disco, it's just your post was the catalyst for my interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Not saying out loud when someone impresses you or you appreciate them.
    I'm wary of this one, I understand the sentiment, but some people tend to get a bit paranoid about whether or not you are patronising them.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  4. #34
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I'm wary of this one, I understand the sentiment, but some people tend to get a bit paranoid about whether or not you are patronising them.
    All the more reason to break this stupid habit. If someone is an awesome teacher we always tell them in their reviews, anonymous, that they were awesome. But not to their face. We don't go back and tell people that yeah, they did change our lives, and we just wanted them to know that. If your friend was there when you needed them, tell them that. Tell your best friends that you appreciate their friendship for no reason other than you know you were thinking it in your head just then, so you might as well tell them that.

    If you cannot tell when someone is being a sarcastic asshat to you, or genuinely commenting on your abilities.. then I'd say either you hang out with douchebags, or you're so paranoid about hearing good things with no strings attached that you reject them and really, if that's the case, you need to hear them more so you get comfortable with it.

    .. I frequently shower people in compliments not because I want to wear it out.. but because I notice people that are awesome, and no one in their lives have ever bothered telling them that. And they need to know.. because clearly they don't.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Except that most of those 'manners' are imposed arbitrarily by a society sticking to them.
    They are imposed because they make the world a nicer more congenial place to live.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    They are imposed because they make the world a nicer more congenial place to live.
    Like gay marriage.

  7. #37
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_X View Post
    oh please start with not wearing pants in public. that would be so entertaining. also this whole politeness with not sitting with strangers should go. all these people avoiding each other out of politeness for personal space or whatever. so not fun.
    The kick would be, a man wearing a dress. Actually I would really be surprised if a woman wears a dress at work. They all seem to wear pants here. Unless I'm missing a clue.

  8. #38
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    This whole thread just sounds like a lot of people tired of having to have manners.
    When it is manners themselves under discussion a starting point of assuming, by default, that manners are good in themselves, is mere traditionalism. This might be a radical notion, but norms, which is to say the allowance or encouragement of behaviors, should be justified. Tradition only lends credence insofar as maintaining it maintains cohesion by providing a pre-built system that provides for certain behaviors to be meaningful. The strength of your statement relies on manners being "good" or "desirable" with certainly, so that any belittlement of them is lazyness, rudeness, or a lack of civility rather than a reasonable criticism. Your statement, then, is a mere restatement of the paradigm from within itself. (And as such inevitably inter-supporting)

    So shame on you!

    I would like to say that I am not even against manners, politeness etc. In fact, I'm very partial to them. I always thought if I were a hitman I would feel the need to apologies profusely to my every victim. "Im SO sorry about this." or "I recognize this is an inconvenience but I'm afraid if I forewarned you you might have ran away; I do hope you understand."

    The issue with the argument that code of civility improve the quality of life for those experiencing them is that sometimes a lack of such codes would infact do so to a greater degree. I don't know if others have had this experience, or that others would react in the same manner to me, but receiving a gift as a surprise rather than for an expected event (for example, a birthday) is about 20x more meaningful to me. I once received a 2L bottle of coke entirely unexpectedly from a nice couple I barely knew that well and I swear I nearly cried. Then again, I do love coke.

    This is why I would argue for customs that must be prevented from becoming pressurized norms. Normative pressure robs these acts of their meaning.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    When it is manners themselves under discussion a starting point of assuming, by default, that manners are good in themselves, is mere traditionalism. This might be a radical notion, but norms, which is to say the allowance or encouragement of behaviors, should be justified.
    OK I'll justify it. When we are nice to each other, like kids saying yes sir and no ma'am to adults, opening doors, saying thanks and just generally being respectful makes life more enjoyable. Enough people where I'm from agree with this assertion that manners have been normalized in society. Now up north people are kind of jerks all the time, and consequently, I haven't liked most of the people from NYC I've met.

    The reason hetero marriage is "normal" is that kids come from that style of relationship. And kids are kind of important to the continuation of the species. Now that we have more people on the planet, the need to procreate is less urgent (but not by a lot). This lessening of the need to procreate has allowed alternative relationship to become (relatively) mainstream, and has somewhat decreased to emphasis we put on procreative relationships.

    The reason (once the whole culture war thing has died down [if it ever does]) hetero relationships will always be more normal with regard to the public at large is that kids will always be a fundamental need.

    Over the years civilizations figure out what their people like and what maximizes social benefits to the populace. This is why I'm somewhat traditional, because I'm not willing to throw out centuries of trial and error and cultural evolution because some johhny come lately thinks he's the first person who ever had a good idea.

  10. #40
    Ratchet Ass Moon Fairy Comeback Girl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    OK I'll justify it. When we are nice to each other, like kids saying yes sir and no ma'am to adults, opening doors, saying thanks and just generally being respectful makes life more enjoyable. Enough people where I'm from agree with this assertion that manners have been normalized in society. Now up north people are kind of jerks all the time, and consequently, I haven't liked most of the people from NYC I've met.

    The reason hetero marriage is "normal" is that kids come from that style of relationship. And kids are kind of important to the continuation of the species. Now that we have more people on the planet, the need to procreate is less urgent (but not by a lot). This lessening of the need to procreate has allowed alternative relationship to become (relatively) mainstream, and has somewhat decreased to emphasis we put on procreative relationships.

    The reason (once the whole culture war thing has died down [if it ever does]) hetero relationships will always be more normal with regard to the public at large is that kids will always be a fundamental need.

    Over the years civilizations figure out what their people like and what maximizes social benefits to the populace. This is why I'm somewhat traditional, because I'm not willing to throw out centuries of trial and error and cultural evolution because some johhny come lately thinks he's the first person who ever had a good idea.
    Gays can have kids nowadays, just not by accident. I think that's pretty delightful.
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