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  1. #41
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Perhaps they are first trying to free themselves of the conditioning of the tradition so that they can define their own identity and style... to design innovative things...

    And then perhaps when their style settles and stabilizes in time, they may try to integrate tradition more into their lives and styles, some kind of reconciliation...

    The reverse may be true for the traditionalists as well...
    Ok there's nothing wrong with tradition and there's nothing wrong with non comformity. What I have a problem with is the people who go out of their way to do either one and not remain true to themselves
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #42
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Ok there's nothing wrong with tradition and there's nothing wrong with non comformity. What I have a problem with is the people who go out of their way to do either one and not remain true to themselves
    It's an ongoing process...finding one's true self...

  3. #43
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Most men want children, there's no getting around it.

    Why hate that though?

    Just find a guy that fits you. People can still have a hard time finding someone even if they do want kids.
    I don't hate the guys for that, to be clear. But to deny that it is a constraining factor that makes me nervous dating someone long term? It's definitely there.. The expectation that I'll magically flip a switch in my head, want children, and contribute to building a family. But I'm 27 years old, and everyone around me has flipped their switch yes or no. This isn't stopping me from dating or anything--I'm doing just that.. finding someone that fits me well, and enjoying my time with them. But eventually that factor is going to come up. and I have no idea how to handle that with a long term SO. It's a bridge I have to cross when I get there. I just hate, and am inconvenienced by, the issue entirely.. because there would be less expectations if traditions like starting a family of one's own weren't really the norm. It's not a bad thing--it just sort of sucks for me. If that makes sense.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't hate the guys for that, to be clear. But to deny that it is a constraining factor that makes me nervous dating someone long term? It's definitely there.. The expectation that I'll magically flip a switch in my head, want children, and contribute to building a family. But I'm 27 years old, and everyone around me has flipped their switch yes or no. This isn't stopping me from dating or anything--I'm doing just that.. finding someone that fits me well, and enjoying my time with them. But eventually that factor is going to come up. and I have no idea how to handle that with a long term SO. It's a bridge I have to cross when I get there. I just hate, and am inconvenienced by, the issue entirely.. because there would be less expectations if traditions like starting a family of one's own weren't really the norm. It's not a bad thing--it just sort of sucks for me. If that makes sense.
    It makes total sense.

    I do have a question for you though...

    Would the human race be better served by family creation being the norm, or not being the norm?

  5. #45
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It makes total sense.

    I do have a question for you though...

    Would the human race be better served by family creation being the norm, or not being the norm?
    I think a mixture of the two is necessary for survival. We need people to be free of constraints of children to do things that people who nurture and care for children cannot themselves. Everyone has a role in this--and just because I lack children does not mean I lack a responsibility towards children. It takes a village, and all that.

    I'm not saying I know the future.. and maybe some freak thing will happen and I'll end up with a kid. I am saying that the idea is terrifying 27 years later, and that I have had nothing and no one ever to motivate me even remotely into considering things outside of pure, fictional hypotheticals.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think a mixture of the two is necessary for survival. We need people to be free of constraints of children to do things that people who nurture and care for children cannot themselves. Everyone has a role in this--and just because I lack children does not mean I lack a responsibility towards children. It takes a village, and all that.

    I'm not saying I know the future.. and maybe some freak thing will happen and I'll end up with a kid. I am saying that the idea is terrifying 27 years later, and that I have had nothing and no one ever to motivate me even remotely into considering things outside of pure, fictional hypotheticals.
    Having children is certainly a scary thing that no one is ever ready for.

    But, as much as I value my freedom etc., there is nothing I want more than to get to raise some kids to be awesome people to carry on when I am gone. If I don't have a son my last name dies with me...

    I think my future kids will be a positive influence on the world. I want who I am (my genes) to play a role in what the future of the human race looks like.

    I'm selfish enough as it is, I can't wait to find a woman I love more than I love me, and to then have kids I'd gladly lay down my life for. I think that will fulfill me in a way that all the traveling, consumption, fun etc... never could.

    I don't really worry about screwing my future kids up because my folks did a pretty good job with me and my sis.

    But then again different strokes for different folks.

  7. #47
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I lean toward not wanting kids, but my mother threw an interesting conundrum at me.

    I thought that in many ways having children is actually rather irresponsible, what with population problems, questions about my abilities to be a parent, all the kids in need of being adopted, etc... My mother said asked me what kind of person would actually forgo having children because of the possible broader damage done by it? A particularly intelligent, conscientious person, that's who. Which ironically means that if I don't have kids, I fail to pass on the genes and the rearing of someone who is intelligent and conscientious, while leaving people who couldn't be bothered to think about it to propagate, essentially selecting for an inferior population.

    She got me there.
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  8. #48
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Having children is certainly a scary thing that no one is ever ready for.

    But, as much as I value my freedom etc., there is nothing I want more than to get to raise some kids to be awesome people to carry on when I am gone. If I don't have a son my last name dies with me...

    I think my future kids will be a positive influence on the world. I want who I am (my genes) to play a role in what the future of the human race looks like.

    I'm selfish enough as it is, I can't wait to find a woman I love more than I love me, and to then have kids I'd gladly lay down my life for. I think that will fulfill me in a way that all the traveling, consumption, fun etc... never could.

    I don't really worry about screwing my future kids up because my folks did a pretty good job with me and my sis.

    But then again different strokes for different folks.
    Which is fine and dandy for you. But.. I have nothing tying me to my last name--it goes away when I marry, and even if it doesn't, there's nothing stopping me from adapting my name in any way--adopting children can have their names changed, single moms can have their sons take their name, there is nothing tying me down name wise. And even then.. Who says you'll have a son? Who says he'll carry on your name? Maybe he'll not ever want kids, or will never be able to have them.. So it's just .. what.. delaying the inevitable? That YOUR particular last name will die out? Chances are someone else has it.. or someone else will change their name to it eventually. It'll carry on somewhere, somehow. Or it won't, and no one will care really. Except you. and you'll be dead. I just don't see the huge attachment to the last name game.

    I've had many people in my life I'd lay my life down for--and none of them were my children. It's a great feeling, but I think if you just limit it to you and yours there then you're missing the point.

    Genetics are so, so similar and so, so arbitrary.. Your genetics will change so drastically in 2-3 generations. I look nothing like my great grandparents did. Yeah, you'll look like your mother or father. Your great grandson won't look completely like you. Eventually it all waters down.

    The only thing I even see remotely valid is that you want this feeling of fulfillment from a family--which it can definitely give you. And I feel it is one of the most valid reasons for having a family.. to feel whole, and have people to love, and to be loved back. That is sorely underestimated in a world where love isn't really emphasized the way it should be. But there are many, many forms of love, and some people don't have the same ties to family that others do. For many reasons.

    None of this is wrong--what you said, nor what I just said. It's just that you think more traditionally, and I don't see the point in any of it.. but the fact that many, many people think exactly the way you do (again, not necessarily negative) starts to push into my life because others cannot fathom that I'd like things differently from most. It's frustrating, and feels a bit caged in.. Like I'm ruining their whole set up or something. The set up is fine. It just isn't my set up.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Which is fine and dandy for you. But.. I have nothing tying me to my last name--it goes away when I marry, and even if it doesn't, there's nothing stopping me from adapting my name in any way--adopting children can have their names changed, single moms can have their sons take their name, there is nothing tying me down name wise. And even then.. Who says you'll have a son? Who says he'll carry on your name? Maybe he'll not ever want kids, or will never be able to have them.. So it's just .. what.. delaying the inevitable? That YOUR particular last name will die out? Chances are someone else has it.. or someone else will change their name to it eventually. It'll carry on somewhere, somehow. Or it won't, and no one will care really. Except you. and you'll be dead. I just don't see the huge attachment to the last name game.

    I've had many people in my life I'd lay my life down for--and none of them were my children. It's a great feeling, but I think if you just limit it to you and yours there then you're missing the point.

    Genetics are so, so similar and so, so arbitrary.. Your genetics will change so drastically in 2-3 generations. I look nothing like my great grandparents did. Yeah, you'll look like your mother or father. Your great grandson won't look completely like you. Eventually it all waters down.

    The only thing I even see remotely valid is that you want this feeling of fulfillment from a family--which it can definitely give you. And I feel it is one of the most valid reasons for having a family.. to feel whole, and have people to love, and to be loved back. That is sorely underestimated in a world where love isn't really emphasized the way it should be. But there are many, many forms of love, and some people don't have the same ties to family that others do. For many reasons.

    None of this is wrong--what you said, nor what I just said. It's just that you think more traditionally, and I don't see the point in any of it.. but the fact that many, many people think exactly the way you do (again, not necessarily negative) starts to push into my life because others cannot fathom that I'd like things differently from most. It's frustrating, and feels a bit caged in.. Like I'm ruining their whole set up or something. The set up is fine. It just isn't my set up.
    We very fundamentally disagree on what family is or means.

    My grandfather, father, and I look exactly alike. That's not even the point though. I want to pass on my sense of humor I got from my mom, and the intelligence I inherited from both sides. You can't take anything with you when you go. And without kids, how will anyone ever know you were ever here in the first place?

    Too lazy to expound really, but I'll just say this...

    For your sake, I hope your mind never changes. Or if it does change, that it does so while you can still act on it.

  10. #50
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Ok there's nothing wrong with tradition and there's nothing wrong with non comformity. What I have a problem with is the people who go out of their way to do either one and not remain true to themselves
    For sure... though some people have a really good sense of that and others don't. For some it takes a longer amount of time to individuate and come into their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I lean toward not wanting kids, but my mother threw an interesting conundrum at me.

    I thought that in many ways having children is actually rather irresponsible, what with population problems, questions about my abilities to be a parent, all the kids in need of being adopted, etc... My mother said asked me what kind of person would actually forgo having children because of the possible broader damage done by it? A particularly intelligent, conscientious person, that's who. Which ironically means that if I don't have kids, I fail to pass on the genes and the rearing of someone who is intelligent and conscientious, while leaving people who couldn't be bothered to think about it to propagate, essentially selecting for an inferior population.

    She got me there.
    If having children isn't your thing, you can still volunteer with children in need and help them become more like the children you would have raised. In some ways having someone help take care of the children who already exist but lack support would be to a greater good than having new children and giving them support. The genes... eh, oh well, genes are a crapshoot anyway.

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