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  1. #1
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Default A Beautiful Mind

    Watching Shine last night, about the pianist David Helfgott who suffers from schizoaffective disorder, and talking about Daniel Johnston (schizophrenic and bipolar, among a myriad of other things, I would imagine) on the "What are you listening to" thread, got me to thinking about repressed beauty of feeling and passion that manifests in profound art.

    They have a block on their interpersonal expression, and the only way to get across how they feel is through music. It's tragic yet beautiful. Poe should have written a poem about it, or perhaps Poe is one of them.

    The interesting thing about Daniel and David, is their relative normality in their youth, and the possibility that their disorders are heavily pathologically influenced (religion, social suppression). And as the disorder has progressed, it has become cumulatively self-inflicting.

    In David Helfgott's situation, it seemed that his father's desire to isolate and push his son into becoming a virtuoso pianist (projecting dreams) created a self-fulfilling prophecy, and indirectly lead to his institutionalization.

    Here's that article on the upsides of being down, again:
    Paul Keedwell on the good that depression can bring | Society | The Guardian

    Thoughts?
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    Ti Ne Fi Ni

    -How beautiful, this pale Endymion hour.
    -What are you talking about?
    -Endymion, my dear. A beautiful youth possessed by the moon.
    -Well, forget about him and get to bed.
    -Yes, my dear.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    First of all as far as expressing things. It is hard for me to put things from my Ni and Fi into plain words. It is easier to put them in poetry or art. I can sometimes draw things that I cannot say.

    As far as the article:
    So much to disagree with, I will just touch on my main points.

    I have struggled with depression. I have talked with other people with depression, many of them artist. I have read a bit about depression. I have been in therapy.

    The article claims depression forces you to contemplete, turn inward, etc. My primary is Ni - I am naturally contemplative and introspective. I did not need depression to force me to do it.

    Artists and other creative types have significantly higher incidences of depression and manic-depression that the average population. However, this does not mean that depression causes creativity. While some use art to work though their depression, in general moderate to serve depression (the level that would rate an official diagnosis) causes apathy and decreases creativity. Art is created on the good days, not the times of depression. There is evidence that mania does increase artist drive.

    Not stated in the article: medication(s) for depression can decrease your artistic drive and make you less creative. Some artists refuse to take medication for this reason. This can lead to the misperception that people are more creative when they were depressed. No, people were more creative when they are not medicated.

    The article implies that the only treatment for depression is medication. A competent therapist can help, even if you can't identify an outside cause for you depression. While in therapy, I noticed I became more creative while recovering from depression without medication.

    With regard to the constant portion of society with depression. It is entirely possible that depression can be triggered when a person who is different than the norm feels the pain or not fitting in, not being understood, the pressure to change who they are to be more accepted. (Note: I am not saying this accounts for all the causes of depression.) This will often be percieved by other people as a biologically based depression - because they can't understand why the person is depressed.

    Ilah

  3. #3
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizm View Post
    Why did you title this, A Beautiful Mind?

    My mental illness has destroyed my life. I think this guy is one of those retarded optimists who try to see the good in the bad. There is a good market for this kind of bullshit.
    It is very difficult for those of sound mind to understand those with a psychosis.

    So in trying to understand the psychotic, they first romanticize psychosis. Then when the psychotic don't measure up to the romantic ideal, they reject them.

    And this is one of the sufferings of the psychotic - they are socially excluded.

    And we at MBTI are not exempt - we have just recently banned a psychotic from MBTI.

    This psychotic has been banned, that is, socially excluded from other sites and says so.

    And we are no different - we are emotionally cruel to psychotics - we stick the knife in a little deeper.

  4. #4
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    Surely there is a difference between the psychopath who lacks conscience and empathy, who gets off on hurting others and the truly psychotic? Typically the banned fall into the previous category. How responsible are we to pander to the control needs of the psychopath?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Surely there is a difference between the psychopath who lacks conscience and empathy, who gets off on hurting others and the truly psychotic? Typically the banned fall into the previous category. How responsible are we to pander to the control needs of the psychopath?
    There is the psychopathic personality who is unempathic, controlling and attacks vulnerability but who is functional and often highly successful - such as many CEOs.

    Then there is psychopathic personality disorder - and this is a mental illness - it is a diagnosable psychosis - and it is non-functional - and these psychotics are unsuccessful in life.

    So there is the psychopathic personality which is simply a personality type and often quite successful in life. And there is the psychopathic personality disorder which is a mental illness - and they are unsuccessful in life.

    I believe the person who has been banned has a mental illness, but not psychopathic personality disorder - but another type of mental illness.

    And this banning only contributes to their suffering by socially excluding them.

    I would like to see MBTI become a safe and welcoming place for those with a mental illness.

    MBTI is already a tolerant and well run place. I think we should extend our tolerance to the mentally ill.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There is the psychopathic personality who is unempathic, controlling and attacks vulnerability but who is functional and often highly successful - such as many CEOs.

    Then there is psychopathic personality disorder - and this is a mental illness - it is a diagnosable psychosis - and it is non-functional - and these psychotics are unsuccessful in life.

    So there is the psychopathic personality which is simply a personality type and often quite successful in life. And there is the psychopathic personality disorder which is a mental illness - and they are unsuccessful in life.

    I believe the person who has been banned has a mental illness, but not psychopathic personality disorder - but another type of mental illness.

    ...

    Thank you for the clarification.

    I suppose it is that there are certain rules here that keep order and this board is very flexible and fluid in that way, very permissive, but if someone does nothing but break the rules over and over flagrantly they have can't be allowed any sort of special rights to distrupt the board over what any other member is allowed to do. I mean who would be in charge of deciding who was truly mentally ill and who was simply getting off on being a trickster?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    They have a block on their interpersonal expression, and the only way to get across how they feel is through music. It's tragic yet beautiful. Poe should have written a poem about it, or perhaps Poe is one of them.
    I read about Poe that he really didn't like the genre that he wrote in but it was what the publishers would take at the time and he felt he had to write in it to make a living. I feel sad about that. I would want to see what he would have written from his true heart. Maybe this was part of what drove him to despair.

    I wish we could see more art that was driven by what the artist wanted to create and less what the market hungered for. I think it would be something that would satisfy people more than much of the pap pumped out today.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Thank you for the clarification.

    I suppose it is that there are certain rules here that keep order and this board is very flexible and fluid in that way, very permissive, but if someone does nothing but break the rules over and over flagrantly they have can't be allowed any sort of special rights to distrupt the board over what any other member is allowed to do. I mean who would be in charge of deciding who was truly mentally ill and who was simply getting off on being a trickster?
    The mentally ill have been released quite recently from the Asylums - the mentally ill have been released from their prisons - they are now out in our community but we still shun them - we still ban them. This is called emotional cruelty.

    So I invite all those of good will to join me in welcoming our sisters and brothers, particularly those with a mental illness, into MBTI and make them feel welcome.

  9. #9
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    I find comfort in depression. It's one of the few times I really let myself be, I guess, because things can't really get much worse. I end up dissociating gently and become very self-sufficient, which makes me calm and quiet. Definitely lends itself to introspection and intimacy both with one's self and with others.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I mean who would be in charge of deciding who was truly mentally ill and who was simply getting off on being a trickster?
    These are neurotic words - they are directed entirely at control - these are words without understanding of those with a mental illness. These are words which justify emotional cruelty.

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