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  1. #71
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Being indirect can allow the other person to save face.
    Quite so.

  2. #72
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    which translate to: "I'm a pussy, so i'm gonna lie to you and tell you how I didn't mean what I said, even though I did, and I still think what I said"
    If the person does not get what is being communicated to them, then it does not work.

    If they do get it, they can make a course correction without having whatever stupid shit they were doing thrown straight into their face, which can be a bit gentler.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #73
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    If the person does not get what is being communicated to them, then it does not work.

    If they do get it, they can make a course correction without having whatever stupid shit they were doing thrown straight into their face, which can be a bit gentler.
    i thought save face meant like being fake and pretending nothing's wrong when it is with the other person.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    i thought save face meant like being fake and pretending nothing's wrong when it is with the other person.
    To me it means not causing the other person undue embarrassment or emotional discomfort.

    I appreciate it when someone does that for me, if I get the message. I don't always.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #75
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    To me it means not causing the other person undue embarrassment or emotional discomfort.

    I appreciate it when someone does that for me, if I get the message. I don't always.
    that's different, then I retract what I first said.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #76
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    pooping hints or being direct both implies that you are right
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #77
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    It’s interesting to see the different reasons people assume others aren’t direct.

    For myself, a lot of it is laziness. There are some people who pick up on things and can (believe it or not) rather accurately figure out what’s going on without me needing to spell it out in a literal way. I generally only get close to people I vibe with in this way because it’s too difficult, for me, to figure out what to say every single time something annoys me. It’s too much of a distraction. I’d say it’s important to be able to articulate what’s wrong- because not many people get 100% control over who they must interact with regularly, and sometimes it's necessary- but I’d be miserable if I had to do this all the time with the people I’m close to.

    Also there's the saving face thing that cafe described. Like I said in the other thread- I always drops hints first as some kind of warning because being direct immediately- to some people- causes a whole lot more embarrassment or emotional discomfort than is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I generally err on the direct side. The reason for this is that indirect can come off as passive aggressive and there isn't much I dislike more than that. However, I made an effort to learn how to be direct while being diplomatic (tactful) and I'm better at it. I'm not great, I never will be, I leave that to my ENFJ but at least most people don't want to punch me in the mouth/start crying anymore. In relationships, you have to be at least a little indirect. This is all part of the scenery and it adds layers of flavor/buildup/intrigue that seems to be enjoyed. In the end, not every situation can be handled delicately or tactfully and you have to be direct, you just need to learn how to know when those times are.
    LOL. (@ “anymore”)
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  8. #78
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    And I get annoyed when people expect me to take one. It gets tiresome trying to figure out what someone means when they won't just come out and say it. I actually find this kind of pussyfooting around rather disrespectful. People who use it are either trying to be manipulative, or underestimating my ability to handle a direct statement.
    Well I'll confess that I'm sometimes indirect because I'm a massive neurotic, but I try not to be and I end up being perhaps overly honest about certain things.

    I was just thinking in regards to your post if there are other people like that, (undoubtedly so I'd imagine), and maybe that contributes to the issue of indirectness.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  9. #79
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I was thinking on this, and I think one of the reasons I have issues with indirectness is, more than once some one has tried dropping hints. And I don't notice, so I keep doing what's making them mad. And when they are finally direct with me, I feel ten times worse, than if they were just upfront.

    Like one that sticks out really well in my mind. Is my sister-in-law would say goodmorning, one day she quit. I hadn't noticed so I don't think anything of it, or maybe I did but didn't bother me. Finally she was like "did you notice, I stopped saying good morning?" and I was like "no" and she told me how it's considered polite to say good morning even if you don't feel like it. or someone will drop a hint about something I shouldn't do, I'll completely miss the hint, and piss them off, and 9 out of 10 times, they'll assume I'm just being defiant. sometimes I get the hints, not all the time. It's just I feel worse, because even though I can be a social fuck up, I really don't want to be.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #80
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    @prplchknz I hear you and totally relate to your above statement. When someone is upset with you or something you have done, it is not your responsibility to somehow magically know or pick up hints. It is their responsibility to communicate that to you in an honest way. Unlike you I do notice the hints people drop most of the time, but I will blatantly ignore them if it's in the context of conflict. It's not my responsibility to play a game and spare someone the big boy pants required to confront a problem. I do not do passive aggressive, and if anything I will eventually just shatter the bubble with something like, "but what you're really trying to say is that you are super insecure and angry because I beat you at bowling. Perhaps we could communicate like adults if you would just speak your mind." It is the duty of each adult human to be accountable for the way they communicate, especially in regards to hurt, disgruntlement or otherwise serious emotion that needs to be addressed.

    That said, I do pick up hints in other, more casual/playful situations. This is just lighthearted banter for the most part and has no unspoken negative undertones. I do tend to use the phrase "there's a little truth in every 'just kidding'" if I feel that there is though. It tends to gently do the trick.
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