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  1. #31
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    One of the most hilarious things you said @Hard is that Americans have great teeth because of science. Yeah, all of those creationists spend tons of money on tooth care because a scientist told them to. I bought Crest whitening strips because it's science.

    Even if scientists created these inventions, American people seem to take it far beyond hygiene. Who reinforced that narrative to them day after day? Dr. Horowitz?

    No, Close Up, Aqua Fresh and Colgate did. Other countries have science too, Hard. Lol.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    So I'm pathetic for having a different opinion?

    You're using circular logic, again. You simply claim that I am in denial. Ok, how and why should I take that seriously? I say that, because if we were to change it, we'd have to uproot the entire foundation of commertialism and the finaical world would be completely destroyed. People have been advertizing since the dawn of time. Even at little bazzar huts by word of mouth only. People shouting "buy my beans! they're the best this side of the river!". It's human nature to do this. This is why I am saying that. I don't have unfounded reasons for doing so. At no point did I say or think that the world got this way by magic. It is the way it is because this is human behavior. Everyone wants to survive. Some make a living by making a trade and selling/trading items. It's been done since the dawn of time. It's inevitable that individuals are going to do their best to increase their profit and increase the chance of something being bought.

    You're trying to invalidate everything I am saying, because I don't agree. As I said, the way you have framed your argument, it makes it impossible for anyone to disagree. That's not how this works, and that's also what I am trying to point out. EDIT: You also seem to have ignored the link I posted about subliminal messaging.
    Corporations aren't business or capitalism. I am not missing your point. There is a huge difference. And yes, I disagree with you. You are not going to win. I already acquiesced to points about ethical business. That doesn't make what I say any less true.

    I mean, Twinkies don't even taste good. Why wouldn't you eat a fresh bakery cake. You really seem willfully naive to me.

  3. #33
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    One of the most hilarious things you said @Hard is that Americans have great teeth because of science. Yeah, all of those creationists spend tons of money on tooth care because a scientist told them to. I bought Crest whitening strips because it's science.

    Even if scientists created these inventions, American people seem to take it far beyond hygiene. Who reinforced that narrative to them day after day? Dr. Horowitz?

    No, Close Up, Aqua Fresh and Colgate did. Other countries have science too, Hard. Lol.
    I did, because science is what made it known that it needs to exist, and pushed companies to produce toothpaste for individuals to buy. It's been around for so long that it's common knowledge that you have to brush your teeth or problems can arise, and that thought has formed because of the science behind how fluoride works.
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  4. #34
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Corporations aren't business or capitalism. I am not missing your point. There is a huge difference. And yes, I disagree with you. You are not going to win. I already acquiesced to points about ethical business. That doesn't make what I say any less true.

    I mean, Twinkies don't even taste good. Why wouldn't you eat a fresh bakery cake. You really seem willfully naive to me.
    Ah, so there is the honesty we need. So now it's clear to me, and everyone else in this thread that discussing this issue with unless they agree with you, that it is completely pointless, and doesn't need to be taken seriously because you've already made your mind up on circumstantial and circular logic.

    And for the record, I don't eat twinkes either, I don't think they taste good. You say I am willfully ignorant, but guess what, I'm not.

    Guess we'll end this here because you've openly admitted unwillingness to listen, and that you're not worth discussing this with. You haven't refuted much of what I have said anyway.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Ah, so there is the honesty we need. So now it's clear to me, and everyone else in this thread that discussing this issue with unless they agree with you, that it is completely pointless, and doesn't need to be taken seriously because you've already made your mind up on circumstantial and circular logic.

    And for the record, I don't eat twinkes either, I don't think they taste good. You say I am willfully ignorant, but guess what, I'm not.

    Guess we'll end this here because you've openly admitted unwillingness to listen, and that you're not worth discussing this with. You haven't refuted much of what I have said anyway.
    I said willfully naive, not ignorant. And yes, I know what you are doing, you are trying to win. You wouldn't keep replying if you didn't want to win.

    You see, advertising is complex. I even dated someone who worked in advertising. There are so many psychological tricks, simple repetition until something is normal or nostalgic is one of them.

    So what if you don't eat Twinkies. Millions of people do, instead of eating bakery or home baked cake. Now take the word Twinkie and replace it with any disgusting, processed, cheap bland brandname food you can think of.

    You are comical because you don't want to see my point either, no matter how much I explain.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I did, because science is what made it known that it needs to exist, and pushed companies to produce toothpaste for individuals to buy. It's been around for so long that it's common knowledge that you have to brush your teeth or problems can arise, and that thought has formed because of the science behind how fluoride works.
    I can assure you that is not why the average American has their teeth whitened. It's not even about decay anymore, and when advertising for toothpaste began, people were not big on science en masse. A disturbing few still aren't. People do things because tv told them to. That includes adults. Our cultural ideas of normality have shifted wildly thanks to advertising.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Marketing is well beyond "I have the best beans this side of the river" nowadays. It's not brainwashing to try and sell something to another person, but it becomes brainwashing when billions of dollars are spent to bombard everyone in mainstream society with sales pitches fortified by subtle psychological conditioning and manipulation. You browse the internet, you watch TV, you go to sports games, you get on a bus, you listen to the radio, ADS EVERYWHERE: You're fat/hungry/smelly/a nobody/ugly/lonely/lame/etc, buy this and you won't be. Then you buy it, and you still feel shitty...what happened?

    I'm not blaming any one business/person, but when the entire culture is consumed by consumption, it becomes problematic. The epic of Commerce that is the USA creates way more businesses/products than we could ever need. And since there are so many businesses, each business has to work that much harder to make their products stand out. Consequently they dig for any advantage they can get, any possible way they can get it through our saturated minds that we want what they sell. That's why John B. Watson, the father of behaviourism, took so naturally to the advertising world. He knew how to condition people. Like it or not, that shit gets in your head, especially when you're little. So much is decided at such a young age.

    It's just exhausting.

    Also, I really like this David Foster Wallace quote about advertising, and it seems like a good time as any to post it:

    “An ad that pretends to be art is -- at absolute best -- like somebody who smiles warmly at you only because he wants something from you. This is dishonest, but what's sinister is the cumulative effect that such dishonesty has on us: since it offers a perfect facsimile or simulacrum of goodwill without goodwill's real spirit, it messes with our heads and eventually starts upping our defenses even in cases of genuine smiles and real art and true goodwill. It makes us feel confused and lonely and impotent and angry and scared. It causes despair."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    Marketing is well beyond "I have the best beans this side of the river" nowadays. It's not brainwashing to try and sell something to another person, but it becomes brainwashing when billions of dollars are spent to bombard everyone in mainstream society with sales pitches fortified by subtle psychological conditioning and manipulation. You browse the internet, you watch TV, you go to sports games, you get on a bus, you listen to the radio, ADS EVERYWHERE: You're fat/hungry/smelly/a nobody/ugly/lonely/lame/etc, buy this and you won't be. Then you buy it, and you still feel shitty...what happened?

    I'm not blaming any one business/person, but when the entire culture is consumed by consumption, it becomes problematic. The epic of Commerce that is the USA creates way more businesses/products than we could ever need. And since there are so many businesses, each business has to work that much harder to make their products stand out. Consequently they dig for any advantage they can get, any possible way they can get it through our saturated minds that we want what they sell. That's why John B. Watson, the father of behaviourism, took so naturally to the advertising world. He knew how to condition people. Like it or not, that shit gets in your head, especially when you're little. So much is decided at such a young age.

    It's just exhausting.

    Also, I really like this David Foster Wallace quote about advertising, and it seems like a good time as any to post it:

    “An ad that pretends to be art is -- at absolute best -- like somebody who smiles warmly at you only because he wants something from you. This is dishonest, but what's sinister is the cumulative effect that such dishonesty has on us: since it offers a perfect facsimile or simulacrum of goodwill without goodwill's real spirit, it messes with our heads and eventually starts upping our defenses even in cases of genuine smiles and real art and true goodwill. It makes us feel confused and lonely and impotent and angry and scared. It causes despair."
    That is a great quote, and interestingly one of the things I have heard about how Americans seem to non-American people, we can be like that inauthentic smiling ad that is loud and friendly, but at core not a true intimate.

    Of course not all Americans are this way, but it's a cultural trait I have heard from others.

    And yes the reason advertising is especially insidious to children is not because I am one of those omg think of the children people, but because I studied child development in college, and know from reflecting on my own childhood, that it simply sticks better when you are little. Like learning a language.

    I find myself actually happy to see network sound bites and doll commercials from the early 80s because that was like formative years. My Nestle example is actually from my real life. I remember the Alpine White romantic Nestle commercials from the late 80s. When you are that age you make associations you might not make as an adult.

    And yes it matters if teens think they are worthless without xyz brand product. Those teens are human beings and will eventually become adults usually.

    Even our standard of beauty became rigid, or changes with marketing trends.

    It's powerful. That's cool when everyone has fresh breath, but what about all of the other effects, including unconsciously putting certain people in scary positions of economic power that outresources any royalties who ever lived.

  9. #39
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yeah that is why it has such cultural importance. I have noticed that people who were completely sheltered from it in particular as young adults have social issues. Not because anything is iwrong with them, but because they don't recognize cultural markers or even have less aggressive attitudes (I think American people are trained to be competitive and want to achieve) they don't fit in.

    And it's painful for the people who do wake up to be told everything they know is a lie. Television is a hypnotic tool. Subliminal advertising has been used since the forties. I can barely go on facebook sometimes because some of the people I went to high school with will probably never wake up. They will be good little tools, and how do conscious people fight that without hurting the tools themselves.
    In my eyes it's just a schism. There are still chill people out there. I wouldn't say that a lot of people have woken up to the harmfulness of our domestication process though. And I would argue that's probably where everything begins. I think that change can start with parents. But its not like one generation has started the fire. And it's going to take time for everyone to get on the same page.

    So the answer is that we can't fight it in the ways that we're accustomed. You have to be a good role model. You have to let your own light shine so that others can follow. It's not an easy road. that's why you don't see many people taking it. People get discouraged very easily and are prone to let others take the leadership role when the going gets rough. But what they don't realize is that they are the only ones that can really lead themselves.
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  10. #40
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    And yes the Nestle Alpine White commercial is comical to me as a grown woman. But to pre pubescent me, that was beautiful. Music videos even were kind of like that in the mid to late 80s. They were probably trying to cash in on Send Me an Angel '89.

    Point being, I subconsciously trusted Nestle from then on, even if I didn't think of unicorns and guys in white sweaters.

    Much of what creeps me out is that. Just saying oh ok I am used to seeing this brand, so I will buy it again.

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