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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SensEye View Post
    You and Hard are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. Hard is correct in saying critical thinking can overcome much of commercial influence, but I think he greatly overestimates the average person's ability (or perhaps inclination) to think critically.

    Still commercialism is inevitable, and it's not even that bad a thing. For the most part, these companies are selling you things you want, although advertising by intent tries to make you want them more (by doing things like associating status with a brand etc.). However, as long as you can think critically enough to recognize a corporation is trying to exploit you to maximize its' profit, you should be able to defend yourself easy enough. And some people dearly want status, so they pay for it (so for example, instead of wearing a $30 pair of perfectly functional sneakers, they pay > $100 for the most trendy brand of the season).

    But the person making the choice needs to accept some responsibility. They can't just claim they have been "brainwashed" by advertising. They probably have been influenced, but if they aren't conscious of that influence, I think there has been some willful blindness on their part.
    If something happened when you were a child, you were brainwashed. That's why I think anarcho capitalism is absurd in its assertion that people choose...no, adults choose. All things being fair isn't a possibility when you and millions of others already made profits for the.people who will destroy your environment and ship your jobs to China before anyone told you what was going on.

    And selling people what they want is the biggest lie. My grandfather knew that because he was born before television. Selling people what they want is the creepiest fucking thing people believe. No, you were TRAINED to think you wanted it by being bombarded with advertisers.

    Of course I take personal responsibility for my adult self. I don't watch tv or listen to radio so I am no longer assaulted by advertising. And once you do that, you take control of your choices now. But even so, you were already used to put fiscal despots in power, despots you have been so convinced already there is no use fighting against.

    I think a lot of people can't handle the truth, it's like an acid trip, because it actually examines parts of the American psyche you have been brainwashed to accept as "reality."

    People don't want to hear it. It's easier for them to be a trained bear.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    If something happened when you were a child, you were brainwashed. That's why I think anarcho capitalism is absurd in its assertion that people choose...no, adults choose. All things being fair isn't a possibility when you and millions of others already made profits for the.people who will destroy your environment and ship your jobs to China before anyone told you what was going on.

    And selling people what they want is the biggest lie. My grandfather knew that because he was born before television. Selling people what they want is the creepiest fucking thing people believe. No, you were TRAINED to think you wanted it by being bombarded with advertisers.

    Of course I take personal responsibility for my adult self. I don't watch tv or listen to radio so I am no longer assaulted by advertising. And once you do that, you take control of your choices now. But even so, you were already used to put fiscal despots in power, despots you have been so convinced already there is no use fighting against.

    I think a lot of people can't handle the truth, it's like an acid trip, because it actually examines parts of the American psyche you have been brainwashed to accept as "reality."

    People don't want to hear it. It's easier for them to be a trained bear.
    I more or less agree with the sentiment of this thread. When I watch TV with my friends (it happens on occasion), I basically deconstruct all of the commercials out loud, just to make sure I'm staying vigilant, and to maybe save my friends from being sucked in. I'm REALLY popular.

    Edit: That being said, I'm still pretty brainwashed. More than I will ever know.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    This subject sums up why I have pretty much not related to many other people in my life.

    One of the reasons why I don't relate to them, is cause I don't have strong sentimental attachment to things. Including childhood memories. Especially things like brand names. I don't relate much to Si in general. Details of my past do not stay with me. The only thing that does stay with me is the essence of the experience.

    That being said, I woke up about this subject at quite a young age. And I most definitely didn't fit in in school, simply because I didn't care about wearing the newest thing or what not.

    It is a little disheartening when one realizes that all the literal and metaphorical shit we've been fed and trusted, since childhood, has never had meaning. I have never felt any resemblance of a sense of community because of this. And that's because i refuse to participate in a community which bases its significance on what they've been told to. It's a catch 22. You want to be accepted for who you are and feel a sense of belonging, but the ways in which some(probably even most) people get accepted is by not being who they are.
    Yeah that is why it has such cultural importance. I have noticed that people who were completely sheltered from it in particular as young adults have social issues. Not because anything is wrong with them, but because they don't recognize cultural markers or even have less aggressive attitudes (I think American people are trained to be competitive and want to achieve) they don't fit in.

    And it's painful for the people who do wake up to be told everything they know is a lie. Television is a hypnotic tool. Subliminal advertising has been used since the forties. I can barely go on facebook sometimes because some of the people I went to high school with will probably never wake up. They will be good little tools, and how do conscious people fight that without hurting the tools themselves.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I more or less agree with the sentiment of this thread. When I watch TV with my friends (it happens on occasion), I basically deconstruct all of the commercials out loud, just to make sure I'm staying vigilant, and to maybe save my friends from being sucked in. I'm REALLY popular.

    Edit: That being said, I'm still pretty brainwashed. More than I will ever know.
    Well that's what I realized about myself. No matter how aware I am and make conscious choices today, everything I have ever known from mass media is a part of me, good and bad. I relate to pop culture and American advertising history. Even though I approach it like a conscious collector, it's part of my American psyche. It's part of my history and boy do I like history.

    Even when I watch you tube I try to not listen to the occasional commercial they toss out. It's difficult to live as an American without commercialism.

    Facebook invades everyone's private lives, literally, but all my old friends and family are there.

    Truly evil exploitation is used. They put you in a position to where you practically have to become a fucking hermit who denies your own past to avoid it entirely. I am sure that is easier for a very small number of people.

  5. #25
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Fuck culture and national identity. Identify yourself to yourself, within your boundaries with reasonable consideration for others and the rest will fall into place.

    Idealism and competitive edge is at heart of the worst in humanity. Idealism because it breeds and fosters extremity; competitive edge because of idealism whereby people leverage off others because of a lack of self and dependency on collective opinion.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Fuck culture and national identity. Identify yourself to yourself, within your boundaries with reasonable consideration for others and the rest will fall into place.

    Idealism and competitive edge is at heart of the worst in humanity. Idealism because it breeds and fosters extremity; competitive edge because of idealism whereby people leverage off others because of a lack of self and dependency on collective opinion.
    That's easier said than done even for people who consider themselves individuals.

    I can't say fuck culture. I am a Cultural Realist and I am going to want to discuss it.

    However, it's easier to do that with things that genuinely hold no interest for you. But even subculture is culture.

    Maybe for you, you don't have fascination for cultural markers of certain periods of American history. I do. Including the decade of my childhood, and most of the 20th century.

  7. #27
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    That's easier said than done even for people who consider themselves individuals.

    I can't say fuck culture. I am a Cultural Realist and I am going to want to discuss it.

    However, it's easier to do that with things that genuinely hold no interest for you. But even subculture is culture.

    Maybe for you, you don't have fascination for cultural markers of certain periods of American history. I do. Including the decade of my childhood, and most of the 20th century.
    Such an inaccuracy and not what I stated. Historical periods are interesting where the evolution of sociological change can help to explain the society of today. Society is also interesting, including and especially the games people play where even though context differs, even from micro to macro and so forth, the underlying games remain the same.

    My perspective surrounds the `being at mercy of` perspective. That`s a false paradigm but as victim, it`s the most powerful position in any transactional analysis triangle. The victim can`t be held responsible so they must be saved.

  8. #28
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    What you have said, and what you have replied to others here with, is nothing more than speculation and personal opinion. But you're preaching it like it's a self-evident fact (when it's not). It's impossible for anyone to make any ground against you, because you have set the condition of "if you disagree, you're brainwashed and haven't seen the light!". Which, isn't how this works. This isn't really any different than some forms of religious claims. As it goes "I say god exists, and you can't prove me wrong, so he exists and I am right!". No. That's circular logic, and that is what you're applying here, and circular logic does not work. This highlights those points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    actually examines parts of the American psyche you have been brainwashed to accept as "reality."

    People don't want to hear it. It's easier for them to be a trained bear.

    ...

    And it's painful for the people who do wake up to be told everything they know is a lie. Television is a hypnotic tool. Subliminal advertising has been used since the forties.
    So, we don't agree because we don't want to or haven't seen the light? We wouldn't be discussing this if this was self-evident (which it's not) like you're claiming. That's not how discussions like this work, and you can't tout this as reality without support. Subliminal advertizing doesn't have nearly the effect people claim. Recently they found that it does have a slight effect (which I was surprised to learn), but it's very minor, and not all that different than every day subconscious decisions we make all the time. You're making this out to be FAR more severe than it actually is, and it simply is not that way. The article addresses that too.

    I'll ask you again. What alternative is there? You do indirectly suggest it; live as a hermit. But, that's not practical to do. I'll say it again, this is how the world is. It's so ingrained in modern society that it can not be undone. What we CAN do, is stay as informed and aware as we can be, make informed decisions, and take measures against those who cause actual tangible problems. Such as mistreating workers, covering up harmful consumer products, corporate fraud, monopolizing, price gouging. I'm a HUGE Elizabeth Warren supporter, and she is really championing this cause. Cause believe it or not, I actually share your core value of being anti-corporate abuse. What I don't agree with at all, is that advertizement is inheriently evil, that all business is bad because it's business, and all those at high positions are evil. You haven't given anything that suggests that it is other than personal opinion of what you have experienced. It just strikes me as "sheeple! Fuck the system! Because it's the system!" and I just don't take well to that at all, as it causes more problems than it tries to fix.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    What you have said, and what you have replied to others here with, is nothing more than speculation and personal opinion. But you're preaching it like it's a self-evident fact (when it's not). It's impossible for anyone to make any ground against you, because you have set the condition of "if you disagree, you're brainwashed and haven't seen the light!". Which, isn't how this works. This isn't really any different than some forms of religious claims. As it goes "I say god exists, and you can't prove me wrong, so he exists and I am right!". No. That's circular logic, and that is what you're applying here, and circular logic does not work. This highlights those points:



    So, we don't agree because we don't want to or haven't seen the light? We wouldn't be discussing this if this was self-evident (which it's not) like you're claiming. That's not how discussions like this work, and you can't tout this as reality without support. Subliminal advertizing doesn't have nearly the effect people claim. Recently they found that it does have a slight effect (which I was surprised to learn), but it's very minor, and not all that different than every day subconscious decisions we make all the time. You're making this out to be FAR more severe than it actually is, and it simply is not that way. The article addresses that too.

    I'll ask you again. What alternative is there? You do indirectly suggest it; live as a hermit. But, that's not practical to do. I'll say it again, this is how the world is. It's so ingrained in modern society that it can not be undone. What we CAN do, is stay as informed and aware as we can be, make informed decisions, and take measures against those who cause actual tangible problems. Such as mistreating workers, covering up harmful consumer products, corporate fraud, monopolizing, price gouging. I'm a HUGE Elizabeth Warren supporter, and she is really championing this cause. Cause believe it or not, I actually share your core value of being anti-corporate abuse. What I don't agree with at all, is that advertizement is inheriently evil, that all business is bad because it's business, and all those at high positions are evil. You haven't given anything that suggests that it is other than personal opinion of what you have experienced. It just strikes me as "sheeple! Fuck the system! Because it's the system!" and I just don't take well to that at all, as it causes more problems than it tries to fix.
    It's so pathetic that you keep insisting that this is the way the world is, in such a manner that you seem to feel powerless to change it, so why is the world this way, and why are you powerless to it, if it's not because we have been made sheeple who piece by piece make Nabisco and McDonald's and Apple our kings.

    You are so in denial that you are not going to be reached. You seem to think that the world got this way through nature or magic, and not systemic guidance of the proles.

    Furthermore I never said all business was bad. I am all for small business and ethical companies like I stated earlier.

  10. #30
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's so pathetic that you keep insisting that this is the way the world is, in such a manner that you seem to feel powerless to change it, so why is the world this way, and why are you powerless to it, if it's not because we have been made sheeple who piece by piece make Nabisco and McDonald's and Apple our kings.

    You are so in denial that you are not going to be reached. You seem to think that the world got this way through nature or magic, and not systemic guidance of the proles.
    So I'm pathetic for having a different opinion?

    You're using circular logic, again. You simply claim that I am in denial. Ok, how and why should I take that seriously? I say that, because if we were to change it, we'd have to uproot the entire foundation of commertialism and the finaical world would be completely destroyed. People have been advertizing since the dawn of time. Even at little bazzar huts by word of mouth only. People shouting "buy my beans! they're the best this side of the river!". It's human nature to do this. This is why I am saying that. I don't have unfounded reasons for doing so. At no point did I say or think that the world got this way by magic. It is the way it is because this is human behavior. Everyone wants to survive. Some make a living by making a trade and selling/trading items. It's been done since the dawn of time. It's inevitable that individuals are going to do their best to increase their profit and increase the chance of something being bought.

    You're trying to invalidate everything I am saying, because I don't agree. As I said, the way you have framed your argument, it makes it impossible for anyone to disagree. That's not how this works, and that's also what I am trying to point out. EDIT: You also seem to have ignored the link I posted about subliminal messaging.
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